C2C - Buildings Discussion

[ls612]

No, I wouldn't want to waste your time. What I could use is a generalized example on what an entry in the template XML should look like, ie <example>Column, sub 1, etc </example>. I can do the rest

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

No, I wouldn't want to waste your time. What I could use is a generalized example on what an entry in the template XML should look like, ie <example>Column, sub 1, etc </example>. I can do the rest

I meant to write some documentation when I was using it but got sidetracked by other stuff, sorry. If you get the chance can you write some. It is often best coming from someone new to it, with all their problems using it fresh in their mind.

Which reminds me that we need a modders documentation thread. So I can find the spawn XML definitions easily.

 

[ls612]

I meant to write some documentation when I was using it but got sidetracked by other stuff, sorry. If you get the chance can you write some. It is often best coming from someone new to it, with all their problems using it fresh in their mind.

Which reminds me that we need a modders documentation thread. So I can find the spawn XML definitions easily.

Seconded, we REALLY need a doco for the new XML.

Koshling: Could this tool theoretically be used to parse Units, Civics, and other categories?

PS: if someone has a free moment(or day), would it be possible to make a template for ALL entries in the schemas for buildings, techs, terrain, Units, and Gameinfos? I am planning to make a C2C reference for the team, and the general community, and keep it regularily updated with the SVN.

 

[Koshling]

Seconded, we REALLY need a doco for the new XML.

Koshling: Could this tool theoretically be used to parse Units, Civics, and other categories?

PS: if someone has a free moment(or day), would it be possible to make a template for ALL entries in the schemas for buildings, techs, terrain, Units, and Gameinfos? I am planning to make a C2C reference for the team, and the general community, and keep it regularily updated with the SVN.

Yes, it's intended to be generic - can use it on anynofthe XML, not just buildings.

 

[EldrinFal]

I meant to write some documentation when I was using it but got sidetracked by other stuff, sorry. If you get the chance can you write some. It is often best coming from someone new to it, with all their problems using it fresh in their mind.

Which reminds me that we need a modders documentation thread. So I can find the spawn XML definitions easily.

I have these in the Neanderthal spawn xml, I just haven't pushed that yet until I find a good setting. They could be copied to the beginning of the other spawn documents as needed.

But more documentation would still be helpful.

 

[Snofru1]

When you turn off the space victory then you can´t build the Apollo project anymore. That seems to be wrong to me as Apollo opens up Hubble and other important things. You shouldn´t be able to build space ship parts, but Apollo should be possible.

 

[steampunk1880]

Really? Darn, now i have to start over.

edit: did that come off as sarcastic? I'm sorry if it did, I was being serious. But on closer inspection you're only really missing out on two buildings, the point of each being to speed up space ship parts production so you really aren't missing much.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Tar Refinery: +1
Tech: Pottery
Requires Oil or Good (Tar)
+10% to build wooden ships, +20% to build Paved Roads / Expressway
Ancient people used tar (aka bitumen) to waterproof ships, houses, baskets, or other items and as mortar in masonry.

I could not find tags for it. All I could find was <DomainProductionModifiers> which i can give to all sea units OR <UnitClassProductionModifiers> which I can give to individual units. Which is way too many to give. Or there is <UnitCombatFreeExperiences> which can give free XP to wooden ship. There needs to be something like <UnitCombatProductionModifiers> but I could not find one. So I am giving it the <DomainProductionModifiers> at least.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I could not find tags for it. All I could find was <DomainProductionModifiers> which i can give to all sea units OR <UnitClassProductionModifiers> which I can give to individual units. Which is way too many to give. Or there is <UnitCombatFreeExperiences> which can give free XP to wooden ship. There needs to be something like <UnitCombatProductionModifiers> but I could not find one. So I am giving it the <DomainProductionModifiers> at least.

Slacker, I went through and gave each wooden ship 20% with prime timber.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Slacker, I went through and gave each wooden ship 20% with prime timber.

Your right. I will go add them all.

 

[Necratoid]

I think once you get a certain amount of people in one city you should start having them have a chance to break off into barbarian units... a 100 pop is how many people in one small area? 140 pop is like half a billion people or something. Give them exp equal to the unhealthiness in the city... and automatically have their upgrades on. At that size a city your going to have street gangs the size of North Korea's army. This or subtract poplation points (adding a swarm of unhealthly and unhappy until disposed of) and spawn mutants or zombies or something.

Maybe you need to make city population grant the city 1 unrest point for every 10 pop.

Seriously... population points should spawn off into small armies with their own settlers and workers at that point. Maybe spawn a new city with X population points on the outskirts of your city.

 

[steampunk1880]

OK, so with assembly line and coal in the vicinity I can build shale plants whenever I please since it's no longer a unique Japanese thing. It costs as much as a coal plant, has zero building unhealthiness gives a whopping six free hammers provides power AND gives you oil products way before you know refining or combustion. I can't honestly see why I would want to build any other type of power plant with this baby in my city.

I suggest shale plant requiring coal and stone in the vicinity and the tech Refining. Also halve the hammer bonus.

 

[Nevets_]

Weren't the Japanese shale plants supposed to be modeled after early 20th century ones? I thought they were worse (more expensive) than oil refineries and were used as a last-resort because Japan didn't have enough natural petroleum deposits itself.

 

[Hydromancerx]

OK, so with assembly line and coal in the vicinity I can build shale plants whenever I please since it's no longer a unique Japanese thing. It costs as much as a coal plant, has zero building unhealthiness gives a whopping six free hammers provides power AND gives you oil products way before you know refining or combustion. I can't honestly see why I would want to build any other type of power plant with this baby in my city.

I suggest shale plant requiring coal and stone in the vicinity and the tech Refining. Also halve the hammer bonus.

Good idea.

EDIT: Pushed to the SVN.

 

[climat]

- of AIs is problematic. Some ideas.

1. Increase of Palace.
2. Make crime buildings national wonders.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I agree climat that espionage is problematic to say the least.

It's broken from my point of view. And as long as it and Culture remain skewed then the Game sliders are still broken and Players like 45* will never use the last 2 sliders and keep the science cranked to 100% no matter how much Gold gets hosed. Or Maintenance gets added, and then Gold will finally "bust" like it did in AND because of being Over Restricted. Since the core problem is still there. Espionage and Culture must be fixed before Gold and Maintenance can be fine tuned.

I still hav'nt built an Assassin's Den since the - was added. I just station Dog units in my cities and at various choke points with a strong melee unit to kill the assassin. Dog spots him Melee then kills him. And I don't have cities in the -:espionage range either. Cause I don't build the - ones. But it's set up that the AI Will use the - ones to it's detriment. Players report that they can "See" into every AI city. It's because they don't build the - stuff, the AI does so the Players Ratio to the AI is vastly superior and they (the AI) is exposed to the players better usage and Ratio of Esp.

All the -Espionage stuff needs removed and rethought out. Espionage is a ratio between how much I'm willing to invest in it vs how much the AI will Invest in it. And adding "negatives" is the wrong track. Keeping Esp buildings and units uniform/affordable in cost will then let the AI decide how much of the Slider to use to strengthen it's position compared to it's neighbors (player and other AI's alike). More Slider used stronger the esp gets Above The Base range.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree climat that espionage is problematic to say the least.

It's broken from my point of view. And as long as it and Culture remain skewed then the Game sliders are still broken and Players like 45* will never use the last 2 sliders and keep the science cranked to 100% no matter how much Gold gets hosed. Or Maintenance gets added, and then Gold will finally "bust" like it did in AND because of being Over Restricted. Since the core problem is still there. Espionage and Culture must be fixed before Gold and Maintenance can be fine tuned.

I still hav'nt built an Assassin's Den since the - was added. I just station Dog units in my cities and at various choke points with a strong melee unit to kill the assassin. Dog spots him Melee then kills him. And I don't have cities in the -:espionage range either. Cause I don't build the - ones. But it's set up that the AI Will use the - ones to it's detriment. Players report that they can "See" into every AI city. It's because they don't build the - stuff, the AI does so the Players Ratio to the AI is vastly superior and they (the AI) is exposed to the players better usage and Ratio of Esp.

All the -Espionage stuff needs removed and rethought out. Espionage is a ratio between how much I'm willing to invest in it vs how much the AI will Invest in it. And adding "negatives" is the wrong track. Keeping Esp buildings and units uniform/affordable in cost will then let the AI decide how much of the Slider to use to strengthen it's position compared to it's neighbors (player and other AI's alike). More Slider used stronger the esp gets Above The Base range.

JosEPh

I have to agree here. Before it was introduced enemy spies would cause havoc if I did not use the espionage slider, defensive spies and counter espionage mission. Now I don't need to bother because the AI as no espionage.

 

[climat]

The problem is law buildings which offset - tend to come later than crime buildings and they take too much , so AIs don't build them. On the other hand, crime buildings give decent and even awesome units. How can AIs resist to those?
Especially Bandit's Hideout. It comes so early (Scavenging), provide decent income(5) and hidden units (Thief, Rogue) which AIs are crazy about, and will not be obsolete until late eras. Yes, it requires Banditry civic, but AIs don't seem to be interested in changing Military civics until Pacifism.

 

[JosEPh_II]

And Pacifism is OP and the AI is Addicted to it, just like they are to Slavery. These 2 Civics exacerbate the whole Slider problem. I've actually started to make a new Civ4CivicsInfos file. I'm attempting to reduce the Ai's penchant for these 2 Civics I've mentioned plus redo some of the bonus/penalties that the Gov't and Power civics use.

I've also reduced the WW for any Civic that has it in it, and on a few that didn't added a bit of WW. But in no Civic is the WW above 25%. Any Civic that has a +/-WW of greater than 25% is out of control and detrimental to the AI's and Player's usage of these Civics.

When I get more testing/refining done I'll post it for ppl to compare to the current set.

JosEPh

 

[EldrinFal]

I agree climat that espionage is problematic to say the least.

It's broken from my point of view. And as long as it and Culture remain skewed then the Game sliders are still broken and Players like 45* will never use the last 2 sliders and keep the science cranked to 100% no matter how much Gold gets hosed. Or Maintenance gets added, and then Gold will finally "bust" like it did in AND because of being Over Restricted. Since the core problem is still there. Espionage and Culture must be fixed before Gold and Maintenance can be fine tuned.
JosEPh

I think most of us acknowledge it is a problem, but the solution is difficult. The issue goes back all the way to stock Civ IV. Science is just so important that you really have to research as much as you can to stay competitive. Back when was harder to come by, I might use my culture slider to gain the bonus from Colloseums / Theatres etc. but there are other solutions with C2C. And still.. I only increased when I HAD to.

I think the Gold issue is separate (albeit connected ) and so far it seems Hydro's changes have helped. I will note though that after a brief period of having to lower my science slider, I AM back to 100%. But now my surplus gold is only around 10. We'll see how things go once I hit the Classical Age.