C2C - Flammability

[Koshling]

Truer words have never been spoken. Now the question is, who will do this task? Is it something you have on your agenda somewhere, short or long term? Or must this be done in python?

No, it's a DLL task, but I don't plan to tackle it at least in the foreseeable future as I have far too much to do on AI and performance work.

 

[JJOne]

The event system scales event probability based on the available selection of events that can happen under the current circumstances. IMO that whole mechanism needs to change so that events have an independent firing probability scaled ONLY by game speed and some (possibly BUG-visible) overall multiplier. That way individual event can have their fire rate tuned and adding more events (or subtracting events) won't make any difference (more events defined just adds to the overall number of events that [are likely to] occur, and that's why I'd also add the overall modifier for gross-scale tuning).

You mean my forges don't get burned because I get quality wool too often, is that it?

 

[Koshling]

You mean my forges don't get burned because I get quality wool too often, is that it?

That or migrating herds of deer

 

[LeftBower]

That or migrating herds of deer

"Quick! Move the deer! The forge is on fire!"

 

[Thunderbrd]

No, it's a DLL task, but I don't plan to tackle it at least in the foreseeable future as I have far too much to do on AI and performance work.

Ok. At some point soon I need to help the Cultural Heritage team with some dll work and I MIGHT be able to evaluate the event coding enough throughout that process to make the needed adjustments. I do understand and completely agree with the sentiment you expressed there and with some research on that code it doesn't sound too tough to manipulate to get it to work that way.

 

[Faustmouse]

Ok. At some point soon I need to help the Cultural Heritage team with some dll work and I MIGHT be able to evaluate the event coding enough throughout that process to make the needed adjustments. I do understand and completely agree with the sentiment you expressed there and with some research on that code it doesn't sound too tough to manipulate to get it to work that way.

I think the Cultural Heritage needs a lot more planing before we can think of implenting something. The first two eras might have enough Missions, but the later haven't. Also, we don't have any suggestions for balancing right now afaik. We just say "build X new cities" but if this X need to be 2 or 13 is unclear. Do you really think it's already time to do some coding work on this right now? I mean, I would love to see that implented, but I'm very busy atm (and my Civ isn't really working) and I haven't heard from Micael or TW for months.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... I wasn't tracking your progress but I was wondering. Let's put it this way, I'll make it my next thing 'to do' when you guys say you're ready for it to be.

 

[Faustmouse]

Sounds good Thank you very much!
I will try to post my ideas for the later eras over the next few days, maybe 10 Missions per era are enough for a start, even if Micael's and TW's goal was 18 I think.

 

[Nimek]

I think we need some prehistoric fire fighting buildings because now after you build smokehouse and fire pit fire dance fire will hit you sooner or later.

I even had gunny situation where i lost smokehouse during fire I rebuild it. few turns later fire strikes again and destroyed smokehouse. I rebuild it. Few turns later again the same happened...

 

[Koshling]

I think we need some prehistoric fire fighting buildings because now after you build smokehouse and fire pit fire dance fire will hit you sooner or later.

I even had gunny situation where i lost smokehouse during fire I rebuild it. few turns later fire strikes again and destroyed smokehouse. I rebuild it. Few turns later again the same happened...

That or some combination of lowering slightly the flammability of some of the early buildings and/or raising the threshold slightly of the burn-down event.

 

[Morlark]

That or some combination of lowering slightly the flammability of some of the early buildings and/or raising the threshold slightly of the burn-down event.

The latter is always one of the first changes I make when downloading a new version of C2C. Also, if Fire Dance increases flammability, Rain Dance should decrease it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The latter is always one of the first changes I make when downloading a new version of C2C. Also, if Fire Dance increases flammability, Rain Dance should decrease it.

Just because you do a rain dance doesn't mean you will make rain (however you get more motivated to tend crops). However for a fire dance they make the fire to dance around and/or with.

 

[Morlark]

You're applying RL logic to a gameplay problem.
The absence of early-game firefighting buildings makes the flammability system un-fun. I simply suggest a flavourful change that would make a convenient remedy.

 

[Taxman66]

All I know is that fire events are out of control again. Once I had my smokehouse burn down I had a flammability score of 8 and then proceeded to have 4 more fire events in about an hour and a half of play, for a total of 6 fire events over 2 hours of play.

I wouldn't want to start over and turn events off... but this is really, really frustrating.

 

[Nimek]

YOu have right current flammability system in preh. era makes game unfun.

I wonder haw AI handle flammability at thi early stage of the game. I am afraid that AI build smae buildings over and over again (burned during fire)

 

[Hydromancerx]

Is all about mastering the different properties. In the beginning flammability is something you have less control over. But as you advance you can control it with Fire Fighting building and water buildings.

Similarly pollution is something you have very little control over until late game. This is both historically relevant and helps reward the player who has stuck out the game for the long haul. In fact much of the game is about mastery over different aspects. For instance city growth is very difficult in the prehistoric era but once you can change off those first civics that it gets easier. So much so you may get a problem of over population and thus get unhealthiness from population.

 

[Koshling]

Is all about mastering the different properties. In the beginning flammability is something you have less control over. But as you advance you can control it with Fire Fighting building and water buildings.

Similarly pollution is something you have very little control over until late game. This is both historically relevant and helps reward the player who has stuck out the game for the long haul. In fact much of the game is about mastery over different aspects. For instance city growth is very difficult in the prehistoric era but once you can change off those first civics that it gets easier. So much so you may get a problem of over population and thus get unhealthiness from population.

True to a point, but with the flammability event (burn down) set so low it effectively means you cannot build more than perhaps a fire pout without continually rebuilding them, and that's what makes it un-fun early on. I don't think we need early fire fighting, just a slightly lower probability and/or higher threshold on the burn down event.

 

[Nimek]

@koshling
Good point. Please do that and also check gov AI handle flamability in prey era. It should avoid fire making building in early game if possible

 

[Koshling]

@koshling
Good point. Please do that and also check gov AI handle flamability in prey era. It should avoid fire making building in early game if possible

The AI has nothing to go on apart from the AIWeight and effective range set for any given property. If the effects of low levels are bad out of alignment with how far through the operational range it is the AI cannot see that, and cannot easily be made to see it. This is why property effects need to scale fairly linearly with property value, which isn't really true for early flammability (which has a rather significant knee at the value that the burn-down event comes into play).

Another way to address this would be to make the burn-down events more progressive. Instead of a single burn down event split it into 3 say:

EVENT_BURN_BUILDING1 - triggers at (say) 20 flammability, 1% chance per turn of burning something

EVENT_BURN_BUILDING2 - triggers at (say) 40 flammability, 2% chance per turn of burning something

EVENT_BURN_BUILDING3 - triggers at (say) 60 flammability, 3% chance per turn of burning something

etc...

 

[Hydromancerx]

True to a point, but with the flammability event (burn down) set so low it effectively means you cannot build more than perhaps a fire pout without continually rebuilding them, and that's what makes it un-fun early on. I don't think we need early fire fighting, just a slightly lower probability and/or higher threshold on the burn down event.

Hmm. The question is where is the balance for that threshold? Seems like you would quickly get no fires again once you got fire fighting buildings in place. The only reason the fires can be frequent is there is nothing to counter it until the Town Well. I know there are forges and factories that increase it later but most can be countered by the other anti-fire buildings.

I have been thinking that perhaps an auto-build building could be made if you had access to the river or ocean that gave a small anti-flammability. That would at least reduce some prehistoric era problems. But not help people who did not settle near a body of water.