C2C - Housing

[TowerWizard]

The small cities could also produce culture, wealth or research. But yes, you are correct.

 

[Faustmouse]

I like the idea... if adjusted correctly, it could prevent a city to build unlimited wonders (more flexible than the limited wonder option). Also, many buildings are unlocked by a city size, so you already HAVE a restriction for building buildings in smaller cities...

 

[Hydromancerx]

@TowerWizard

We already have something like this. Not space but city "maturity". At size 6, 12 and 25 different buildings are unlocked. While I love sim city (especially 2000 and 4) this is also civ so things don't always work out since they are different games. I have used many concepts like Crime, Flammability and even having houses separated into Density and Wealth types. But i really think that all you listed is already covered in the city size limit stuff. For instance you need at least city size 6 to build a Factory but size 1 for a Mine or Farm.

 

[TowerWizard]

@TowerWizard

We already have something like this. Not space but city "maturity". At size 6, 12 and 25 different buildings are unlocked. While I love sim city (especially 2000 and 4) this is also civ so things don't always work out since they are different games. I have used many concepts like Crime, Flammability and even having houses separated into Density and Wealth types. But i really think that all you listed is already covered in the city size limit stuff. For instance you need at least city size 6 to build a Factory but size 1 for a Mine or Farm.

I know, and maturity is a good concept. I just brainstormed as a result of you talking about unemployed and homeless. My idea would take a huge amount of work too, and a lot of re-balancing and tweaking. However, I do think that my idea would be possible to implement, but maybe realism has to stop somewhere. I just want to stop every city from building everything, something that differentiates city A from city B. i have thought of a card mechanism too, like in the latest AoE game. You get a deck of different, unique cards and "play" cards on cities, making them different from the other cities. But this would also take a huge amount of work...

 

[GiuseppeIII]

I kid of like your idea even though it would take a long time and a ton of work probably. Also while you talking about sim city did you know there's a new one coming out

 

[Vokarya]

Its there for additional balance since cities naturally have both slums and upper class neighborhoods. Its port or less a supplement to the crime already made by the city size.

Then you're doubling up on a penalty for increasing your city size, which hurts. I feel like there are way too many ways to increase crime and not enough ways to decrease it. There are only so many anti-crime buildings that can be built, and after that, the only way to solve crime is to flood the city with anti-crime units. I don't want to have to use 16 guard units to keep a city's crime rate under control. I think we need another line of anti-crime buildings (like the Public Stoning-Stocks-Gallows-etc line) and have civics affect crime the way they affect instability. As a really radical idea, what if excess happiness reduced crime? I would think happy people have no reason to commit crimes.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I know, and maturity is a good concept. I just brainstormed as a result of you talking about unemployed and homeless. My idea would take a huge amount of work too, and a lot of re-balancing and tweaking. However, I do think that my idea would be possible to implement, but maybe realism has to stop somewhere. I just want to stop every city from building everything, something that differentiates city A from city B. i have thought of a card mechanism too, like in the latest AoE game. You get a deck of different, unique cards and "play" cards on cities, making them different from the other cities. But this would also take a huge amount of work...

Not every city can build every building. There are many city vicinity combos that you just can;t get in every city. There are also cultural limitations, buildings that only come from subdued animals and even buildings limited by your location on the map (such as polar or equatorial ones).

AOE III style cards may be a good idea to add in the future in some form or another.

Then you're doubling up on a penalty for increasing your city size, which hurts. I feel like there are way too many ways to increase crime and not enough ways to decrease it. There are only so many anti-crime buildings that can be built, and after that, the only way to solve crime is to flood the city with anti-crime units. I don't want to have to use 16 guard units to keep a city's crime rate under control. I think we need another line of anti-crime buildings (like the Public Stoning-Stocks-Gallows-etc line) and have civics affect crime the way they affect instability. As a really radical idea, what if excess happiness reduced crime? I would think happy people have no reason to commit crimes.

We have Law Schools and Law Firms now too. There are tons of ways to fight crime now. Not to mention you could just build more anti-crime units too.

I don't think happiness should be used to fight crime since that would be overkill. You can already fight crimes effects with happiness, health and gold.

 

[AIAndy]

I don't think happiness should be used to fight crime since that would be overkill. You can already fight crimes effects with happiness, health and gold.

If only excess happiness reduces crime, then it won't reduce crime if it fights crime effects at a time.
And the feedback would not need to be that large, maybe a point or half a point per excess happiness. At least I think it would be fitting as happy people don't commit as many crimes as unhappy ones.

 

[Hydromancerx]

At least I think it would be fitting as happy people don't commit as many crimes as unhappy ones.

Tell that to the Joker.

 

[Nimek]

@AIAndy

It depende of what type of crime are you thinking. People dont steal small things from shops when they are rich enought. They steal big amounts (coruption, organized crime) and they are happy like american banksters from Goldman Sachs who caused financial meltdown

 

[Vokarya]

We have Law Schools and Law Firms now too. There are tons of ways to fight crime now. Not to mention you could just build more anti-crime units too.

There's not nearly enough ways to fight crime; up to the early Renaissance, there is Courthouse, the Gallows line, Law School/Firm, Seal Maker, and Town Watch. That's not nearly enough to keep crime in check; the total is -55, compared to a big city that may be generating 90+/turn from population alone, not to mention the mandatory crime from Shanty Town and the pretty-much-mandatory crime from City Council and Trading Post. The number of anti-crime units that I am having to build seems very out of balance. I shouldn't need double-digit numbers of units per city to keep crime under control.

I don't think happiness should be used to fight crime since that would be overkill. You can already fight crimes effects with happiness, health and gold.

But you can't fight instability from crimes. That's the biggest issue; crime-caused instability was causing rebellions for me until I realized what was going on.

 

[Nimek]

Maybe we should go to Crime and Punishment thread to finish this discussion ?

This thread is about housing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There's not nearly enough ways to fight crime; up to the early Renaissance, there is Courthouse, the Gallows line, Law School/Firm, Seal Maker, and Town Watch. That's not nearly enough to keep crime in check; the total is -55, compared to a big city that may be generating 90+/turn from population alone, not to mention the mandatory crime from Shanty Town and the pretty-much-mandatory crime from City Council and Trading Post. The number of anti-crime units that I am having to build seems very out of balance. I shouldn't need double-digit numbers of units per city to keep crime under control.

I'm glad someone else is speaking up. I've been bashed too much, so I just shut up about it.

This is related to housing Nimek, as certain now "mandatory housing units" produce Crime

But you can't fight instability from crimes. That's the biggest issue; crime-caused instability was causing rebellions for me until I realized what was going on.

Unlocked crime buildings also produce so much unhappiness and that I constantly run out of Health and Happiness bldgs to counter. (And the New Civics plus Air (which has no early game counter), and Water Pollution add to the problem.) I'm still in Classical Era and have as many as 9 TWs in all my major cities.

As has been stated before most of the low level unlocked "Crimes" have too stiff of a Crime generating level (+5 for ANY Crime unlocked below level 100 is OP for that level Crime).

And any regular Building that generates +10 Crime might as well be removed from the Mod. I'll be *amned if I'll ever build one. And when Hydro "forces" me to do so, then I'll have to modify my C2C version to continue to play this mod.

On a related note:
There are other regular bldgs that have excessive Flammibility or Air pollution that come early that I can't really afford to build them either. +20 Flam for a Smokehouse? Or even for a Forge/Foundry is too much. Especially when Fire brigade/etc are way up the tech tree, nothing early, oh yeah... irrigation gets you a one time -5 Flam., whoopee.

Now with the Mandatory Housing produced Crime and it's just another layer to fight thru. Especially when you are being Dowed every other turn. But Of Course that's how it Must be or it's not a challenge for the Deity players again.

I'll shut up again.....

JosEPh

 

[Hydromancerx]

Unlocked crime buildings also produce so much unhappiness and that I constantly run out of Health and Happiness bldgs to counter. (And the New Civics plus Air (which has no early game counter), and Water Pollution add to the problem.) I'm still in Classical Era and have as many as 9 TWs in all my major cities.

Air Pollution should be kept in check by Forest (and Kelp) near your cities. Water Pollution can be kept in check by rainforests (and coral) plus rivers and oceans. Peaks and Volcanoes are your biggest enemy since peaks block the spread of air pollution (thus it builds up) and volcanoes make air pollution. In short think twice before chopping down a forest or jungle.

On a related note:
There are other regular bldgs that have excessive Flammibility or Air pollution that come early that I can't really afford to build them either. +20 Flam for a Smokehouse? Or even for a Forge/Foundry is too much. Especially when Fire brigade/etc are way up the tech tree, nothing early, oh yeah... irrigation gets you a one time -5 Flam., whoopee.

You can counter flammability early on with a Town Well. You don't have to wait until Fire Brigades.

 

[ls612]

Air Pollution should be kept in check by Forest (and Kelp) near your cities. Water Pollution can be kept in check by rainforests (and coral) plus rivers and oceans. Peaks and Volcanoes are your biggest enemy since peaks block the spread of air pollution (thus it builds up) and volcanoes make air pollution. In short think twice before chopping down a forest or jungle.

I should probably document these methods of pollution control better in the pedia. IIRC AIAndy added something a while back that allows us to insert property icons into pedia text, so I'll probably get around to that soonish.

 

[AIAndy]

I should probably document these methods of pollution control better in the pedia. IIRC AIAndy added something a while back that allows us to insert property icons into pedia text, so I'll probably get around to that soonish.

Yes, any game text, using [ICON_PROPERTY_CRIME] and similar.

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip> In short think twice before chopping down a forest or jungle.

I almost Never chop forest or jungle and still the levels are too high. When ever ANY bldg gives a malus of 20 it's over the top. And makes that bldg mostly useless. I can almost guarantee that Smokehouses (for ex) did Not generate the pollution Nor the Flammability problem you've given it. An early game hat maker adds +5 air and +5 water pollution??? I can go on with more....

You can counter flammability early on with a Town Well. You don't have to wait until Fire Brigades.

Bull**** -5 is meaningless compared to the +20s! Where are the -20 bldgs? Plus if you build the Town well you had better not build a dozen other bldgs because of the Town wells +3 . And a Town well does not deserve such a stiff malus. Oh I know the counter, it provides Fresh water. But just because it allows you to farm adj. tiles doesn't mitigate the . And by the time you get to the techs and game levels that Do start adding + health to the well it's most no longer needed, it's obsolete.

Sometimes Hydro I want to ask you, Do You actually play with the stuff you make? Do you ever use it on maps besides PF2 (which is overrun with resources imho)?

JosEPh

 

[Vokarya]

I'm glad someone else is speaking up. I've been bashed too much, so I just shut up about it.

This is related to housing Nimek, as certain now "mandatory housing units" produce Crime



Unlocked crime buildings also produce so much unhappiness and that I constantly run out of Health and Happiness bldgs to counter. (And the New Civics plus Air (which has no early game counter), and Water Pollution add to the problem.) I'm still in Classical Era and have as many as 9 TWs in all my major cities.

As has been stated before most of the low level unlocked "Crimes" have too stiff of a Crime generating level (+5 for ANY Crime unlocked below level 100 is OP for that level Crime).

And any regular Building that generates +10 Crime might as well be removed from the Mod. I'll be *amned if I'll ever build one. And when Hydro "forces" me to do so, then I'll have to modify my C2C version to continue to play this mod.

On a related note:
There are other regular bldgs that have excessive Flammibility or Air pollution that come early that I can't really afford to build them either. +20 Flam for a Smokehouse? Or even for a Forge/Foundry is too much. Especially when Fire brigade/etc are way up the tech tree, nothing early, oh yeah... irrigation gets you a one time -5 Flam., whoopee.

Now with the Mandatory Housing produced Crime and it's just another layer to fight thru. Especially when you are being Dowed every other turn. But Of Course that's how it Must be or it's not a challenge for the Deity players again.

I'll shut up again.....

JosEPh

Crime is the problem insofar as it causes instability, and the lack of tools to deal with it. I don't see a lot of flammability events, so it isn't a problem for me. In my current game, I'm playing on Deity and I'm the one doing most of the DoWing. I got some DoW's from civs on other continents, but I'm the only one to Astronomy so it wasn't a problem.

I very rarely build the +10 or more crime buildings, because I don't feel like I ever need the benefits. Maybe I build 1-2 Bandit's Hideouts in the early game, but that's about it.

 

[Vokarya]

Bull**** -5 is meaningless compared to the +20s! Where are the -20 bldgs? Plus if you build the Town well you had better not build a dozen other bldgs because of the Town wells +3 . And a Town well does not deserve such a stiff malus. Oh I know the counter, it provides Fresh water. But just because it allows you to farm adj. tiles doesn't mitigate the . And by the time you get to the techs and game levels that Do start adding + health to the well it's most no longer needed, it's obsolete.
JosEPh

Definitely agreed. The Fresh Water buildings inflict way too much of a health penalty. Take out the negatives from resources and they would be better balanced.

 

[Vokarya]

By the way -- why does Housing (Homeless) have +8 unhealth? You're going to get stuck with it at the beginning of the game, and there are enough penalties to early city growth as it is.