C2C - Housing

Thunderbrd · Jun 20, 2011

The workup assumes that - food NEEDED TO GROW will be a positive thing.

We can simply increase the base food needed to grow to compensate, even making cities grow more slowly overall so as to enact further control over this aspect of the current imbalance.

The health/unhealth will always see the health win out. It's more healthy to have housing than for your citizens to be homeless but the more dense the housing, the less effective it is.

The happiness counteracts an adjustment to the amount of base unhappiness given to the population unhappiness modifier (doubling the natural unhappiness by population) making the building critical to establish in every city. The thinking there is that if people are homeless, they are desperately upset. If they have the basic need of housing available to them at a rate they can afford (thus you need to cover all kinds of zones to counteract the growing unhappiness problem) then they should be a long ways towards comfortable and happy with their civilization's leadership.

In some ways, the idea of constantly developing buildings to add more and more worth is inherently flawed in that it will always lead to imbalance. We must find ways to put weight on the other end of the scale without always putting that weight into further building definitions. There comes a time when we need to recognize that the base considerations are out of whack, such as with food - currently our system allows cities to grow too quickly because we have the base food needed to grow too low for an environment where we are providing the player with means to increase food production via buildings. Remember that vanilla had NO buildings that would give additional food period - it ALL came from land spaces ONLY.

Another way to address the food problem is to reconsider how much population 1 pop represents. If each pop represents less actual population than we can rationalize larger cities.

So, I wasn't saying to have it create ANY food LOSS but instead reducing the amount of food necessary to grow (housing allows for personal food storage reducing waste and privacy which increases the capacity for procreation among the citizenry.)

Hydromancerx · Jun 21, 2011

I think happiness should not be associated with it. While the homeless would be happy to get a house those that lived in a better house would not be as happy to downgrade to a lesser house. In other words I think there are too many factors of why you like or dislike a house. For instance many people love the houses they buy but then after a few years are sick of it and wish they had a new house. Likewise some people hate their house and then grow to love it.

On a side note house is your whole maintenance thing going? Is the template thing set up yet?

Thunderbrd · Jun 21, 2011

Its under development. I'm now working to add all the right xml tags to Kosh's ingenious tool... should work out much faster doing it this way so hopefully by this weekend will at least have the spreadsheet worked out.

While the homeless would be happy to get a house those that lived in a better house would not be as happy to downgrade to a lesser house. In other words I think there are too many factors of why you like or dislike a house. For instance many people love the houses they buy but then after a few years are sick of it and wish they had a new house. Likewise some people hate their house and then grow to love it.

I agree that people are finicky and that they all need their homes to reflect what they can afford.

I would presume that without any 'housing' buildings being built, everyone but the mayor and a few select officials would be homeless. Many would remain homeless if you didn't build enough housing districts. Thus, happiness isn't judged as to whether or not you have appropriate housing for your income so much as whether there are enough houses/income options to allow for everyone to BE housed.

Thus, if you double the unhappiness factor on population, then give each housing district built a -10% unhappiness from population effect, you will duplicate the effect of unhappiness from homelessness and happiness from having appropriate shelter. Besides, it would go beyond compensating for the double unhappiness down the road which tends to go towards saying that who cares how crowded the city is as long as we all have a place to call our own?

Hydromancerx · Jun 21, 2011

@Thunderbrd

Those factors actully sound more like they should be a civic and less a building.

Afforess' Re-Written Civics

Department of Housing:

State-Owned Land (Available at Start)
No Upkeep
Cities grow 25% Slower
-35% Commerce
+200% Espionage
+100% City Maintenance
Population is more rebellious

Communal Land (Available at Start)
No Upkeep
Cities Grow 15% Slower
-25% Commerce
-1 Happiness in largest cities
-25% City Maintenance

Fiefdom (Requires: Vassalage)
Medium Upkeep
Cities Grow 3% Faster
-2 happiness in largest cities
Improvements grow 25% Slower
+10% Commerce in Capitol City
Population is more rebellious

Private Ownership (Requires: Banking)
Low Upkeep
+15% Commerce
+1 Unhealthiness in all cities
Improvements grow 35% Faster
Cities Grow 8% Faster
-25% Corporation Costs
-50% Espionage
Population is less rebellious

Subsidized Land (Requires: Social Contract)
High Upkeep
Cities Grow 10% Faster
+1 Healthiness in all cities
+20% City Maintenance
+15% Espionage

This may need to be tweaked for C2C.

Praetyre · Jun 21, 2011

I'd be happy to provide my own thoughts on Industrial/modern house naming. My suggestions are in bold.

Hydromancerx said:
Industrial Era / Modern Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Boondocks
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Suburbs
- Low Density | High Wealth = Mansions
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Ghettos
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Apartments
- Medium Density | High Wealth = Condominiums
- High Density | Low Wealth = Slums
- High Density | Medium Wealth = Highrises
- High Density | High Wealth = Luxury Towers

I would note, though, that villa/insulae/domus etc. are exclusively Roman names, and a "ghetto" would, if you wanted to parallel it's historical forms, require Judaism with another state religion, and in modern times, a degree of cultural influence from a civ with foreign culture in that city. But, a name's a name, and it's as good a fit as any. I'm sure there's a better term than "Luxury Towers" around, but it's the only one I cold come up with at any rate.

Thunderbrd · Jun 21, 2011

Love the names Praetyre!

Ok. Hydro. Lets start from the beginning to think this through. The concept of putting some of those thoughts into Civic form is not a bad one. I do find that a compelling way to consider some of this.

BUT

You seem to be suggesting that housing = more people in the city but those people are not reflected in the city population.

This is where I bear the greatest disagreement. Its hard for me to rationalize the whole system in this manner. If that's what you're going for, we need to get clear on that before we start niggling over the details of what housing means in game effects.

In fact, one thing I was thinking might be a way for both of us to come together on our perspectives here is to have population LIMITED by housing. That might be an interesting way for this whole thing to play out...

Hydromancerx · Jun 22, 2011

@Praetyre

Some good ideas there in names.

@Thunderbrd

Housing limit population actually goes back to my original topic on this for AND. In the old topic i had this ...

Residential Buildings

Spoiler :

However Killtech had a good response to this ...

Killtech said:
omg that's a long list of buildings. you do know that for this to work you need to rewrite much code in the SDK for the AI to understand this concept? otherwise the AI won't have any city larger than 1.

if you really want to make building or residential area into the game i suggest to do it other than with plain mass of buildings: just add one that works similar to building 'research' or 'gold'. name it 'extend residential areas'. depending on production and city size this would give you a factor on the overage of food in the city and thus increase city growth.

In other words it is one thing to have buildings locked until they reach a higher population but having the building limit city size without the AI understanding that they need to build the building will cripple the AI. Which is why I don't want to use that method.

Dancing Hoskuld · Jun 22, 2011

Hydromancerx said:
In other words it is one thing to have buildings locked until they reach a higher population but having the building limit city size without the AI understanding that they need to build the building will cripple the AI. Which is why I don't want to use that method.

I wonder how they achieved it in Civ III and earlier where you a city would not grow beyond size 6 without an aquaduct and so on. :mischief:

Hydromancerx · Jun 22, 2011

Dancing Hoskuld said:
I wonder how they achieved it in Civ III and earlier where you a city would not grow beyond size 6 without an aquaduct and so on.

If you can make it work then I am all for it. I just don't want the AI to be dumb and never build it.

Koshling · Jun 22, 2011

Hydromancerx said:
If you can make it work then I am all for it. I just don't want the AI to be dumb and never build it.

It could be addressed in the AI, but it might give us issues with maintaining DLL-source compatibility with AND. I would have to discuss it with Afforess

Thunderbrd · Jun 22, 2011

At some point, we will have to accept that our files will be further and further differing from AND. We will need to be very careful about documenting those differences so we can easily merge and update - which I know we're doing already. I guess we just need to do it more carefully and thoroughly as we both press forward to make our mods what we want them to be. We can't let that hold us back I think.

The first suggestions were great! (but I still balk at housing COSTING food at all... it'd have an effect of improving on food storage thus reducing waste I think...) Housing COULD, however, require a population to 'staff' (representing stay at home moms).

Waste (+%food needed to grow) <-----> Conservation (-%food needed to grow)
is a whole 'nother metric to fully explore.

For example: Buffet: Gives gold and happiness at the expense of Waste and Unhealth

Shouldn't be hard to make the AI see these as extremely important to build. Just give them a Conservation effect and I think it'd be automatically right up there with Granaries (second or fourth on the priority list (depending on how long the building takes to build) as it stands now.) Might wanna test the effect BUT I don't think it'd take any further dll programming unless putting an xml tag in for population LIMIT would be necessary (I think it might be needed actually.)

Hydromancerx · Jun 22, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
At some point, we will have to accept that our files will be further and further differing from AND. We will need to be very careful about documenting those differences so we can easily merge and update - which I know we're doing already. I guess we just need to do it more carefully and thoroughly as we both press forward to make our mods what we want them to be. We can't let that hold us back I think.

This is a good point. When C2C was started from Prehistoric NWA when Afforess was gone working on Civ5 and even Minecraft. It was assumed he probably was not returning and in turn AND was not going to be active again. However it has and he did return. While I have nothing against him returning and working on AND it just makes things harder for us since we have obviously diverged from AND awhile ago. We can no longer say we are using AND/RoM as our core since so much of it has been changed, tweaked, added on to and even removed (in some cases). At most I think we will have to treat AND like any other mod out there. Where we can salvage stuff we want to add to C2C but not necessarily have to add just because its AND.

Thunderbrd said:
The first suggestions were great! (but I still balk at housing COSTING food at all... it'd have an effect of improving on food storage thus reducing waste I think...) Housing COULD, however, require a population to 'staff' (representing stay at home moms).

Waste (+%food needed to grow) <-----> Conservation (-%food needed to grow)
is a whole 'nother metric to fully explore.

For example: Buffet: Gives gold and happiness at the expense of Waste and Unhealth

Shouldn't be hard to make the AI see these as extremely important to build. Just give them a Conservation effect and I think it'd be automatically right up there with Granaries (second or fourth on the priority list (depending on how long the building takes to build) as it stands now.) Might wanna test the effect BUT I don't think it'd take any further dll programming unless putting an xml tag in for population LIMIT would be necessary (I think it might be needed actually.)

But we need some sort of anti-food factor. This is the best set of buildings to address this issue. Unlike most other mods they just don't have this many buildings producing this much food.

As for houses storing food. I get that, this can be address not by saying they produce food (farms and hunting camps and fishing buildings do that) We can have them work like a weaker version of the Storage Pit / Granary / Ice House; where it stores % :food:

after growth.

This way it would allow for both of our ideas where - :food:

is representing consuming food and % :food:

saved after growth represents the storage of food in homes. So like ...

Low Density = 1% :food:

Storage
Medium Density = 2% :food:

Storage
High Density = 3% :food:

Storage
Super Density = 4% :food:

Storage

Note that each of those will have a Low, medium and High wealth. So at its max you would have 30% :food:

Storage after Growth if you built all the possible buildings. Not to mention the other non-residential buildings that give you a bonus.

Thunderbrd · Jun 22, 2011

But we need some sort of anti-food factor. This is the best set of buildings to address this issue. Unlike most other mods they just don't have this many buildings producing this much food.

I can understand one angle for this, that breeding takes a bit of food supplies and pours it towards children who do not yet count towards population yet (which is only a count of able bodied citizens) and for the elderly. THAT consideration would make some sense.

However, again, I would say that it would be easier to achieve food balance if we simply made it take more food overall to grow in general. Its ok to give excess food as long as we have a drag but that drag doesn't HAVE to come from buildings...

And yes, you're finally seeing what I mean by -% food needed to grow (though I think you just mentioned a whole nother metric I had forgotten existed, % food stored after growth Pretty much amounts to the same thing with some minor differences, and I think the concept is better expressed in % food stored after growth so it would probably make more sense to use that tag instead.)

I think we're coming to a sense of agreement here.

What do you think of (rather than assigning any kind of production penalties due to 'slack' that stems from the comfort of home ownership (-production)) the concept of requiring a population to staff each type of district? (In fact, I suggest 1 pop for low density, 2 pop for med, 3 pop for high, etc...) This would also have a drastic impact on food and helps to balance out our excessive production and gold income as well. (and it makes sense that we're now isolating out of the equation some possible able bodied adults as child rearers.)

Overall, in such a scenario as I'm suggesting here, I would probably want to use BOTH improved % food stored after growth AND - food needed for next growth due to the fact that we would be considering housing to be a breeding ground as well as a subtle food storage mechanism.

Assigning pop to 'staff' housing would also explain some additional gold income as those people would still be out shopping and being taxed on that etc...

Hydromancerx · Jun 23, 2011

Here is a revised list of names ...

Ancient Era / Classical Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Hovels
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Domuses
- Low Density | High Wealth = Villas
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Slums
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Insulas
- Medium Density | High Wealth = ?

Medieval Era / Renaissance Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Shacks
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Cottages
- Low Density | High Wealth = Manors
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Shanty Town
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Commons
- Medium Density | High Wealth = Estates

Industrial Era / Modern Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Boondocks
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Suburbs
- Low Density | High Wealth = Mansions
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Ghettos
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Apartments
- Medium Density | High Wealth = Condominiums
- High Density | Low Wealth = Projects
- High Density | Medium Wealth = Highrises
- High Density | High Wealth = Penthouse Suites

Trans-Human Era / Galactic Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Dugouts
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Smart Homes
- Low Density | High Wealth = Chateau
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Refugee Camps
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = High-Tech Appartments
- Medium Density | High Wealth = High-Tech Condominiums
- High Density | Low Wealth = Habitation Pods
- High Density | Medium Wealth = High-Tech Highrises
- High Density | High Wealth = Holo-Suites
- Super Density | Low Wealth = Arcology Slums
- Super Density | Medium Wealth = Arcology Suburbs
- Super Density | High Wealth = Arcology Upperclass

Hydromancerx · Jun 24, 2011

I have been having trouble finding icon buttons for the Trans-Human Era / Galactic Era housing. Could someone help me out with some examples? Note links are fine I can convert them into icon/buttons myself.

Thunderbrd · Jun 24, 2011

I can make a few... which buildings, in particular, were you having trouble getting icons for?

Also... you never answered my question about how you feel about assigning a population to 'work' these buildings...

Hydromancerx · Jun 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
I can make a few... which buildings, in particular, were you having trouble getting icons for?

Also... you never answered my question about how you feel about assigning a population to 'work' these buildings...

1. I need the following ...

Trans-Human Era / Galactic Era
- Low Density | Low Wealth = Dugouts
- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Smart Homes
- Low Density | High Wealth = Chateau
- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Refugee Camps
- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = High-Tech Apartments
- Medium Density | High Wealth = High-Tech Condominiums
- High Density | Low Wealth = Habitation Pods
- High Density | Medium Wealth = High-Tech Highrises
- High Density | High Wealth = Holo-Suites

I already found the rest.

2. As for the non-working population (children, stay at home mothers and elderly) I think it would not matter since the production is added on after those factors are removed. You still will have more production from a higher density building than a lower density building. So it would not matter.

3. As i have it now it works like this. So far in testing I am happy with the results...

Density
Low = -1 :food:

+1

, -1% Defense, +1% :food:

Stored
Medium = -2 :food:

+2

, -2% Defense, +2% :food:

Stored, +1 :yuck:

, Req Size 6 Pop
High = -3 :food:

+3

, -3% Defense, +3% :food:

Stored, +2 :yuck:

, Req Size 13 Pop
Super = -4 :food:

+4

, -4% Defense, +4% :food:

Stored, +3 :yuck:

, Req Size 25 Pop

Wealth
Low = +1 :gold:

Medium = +2 :gold:

High = +3

Era
Prehistoric = +1 :health:

Ancient Era / Classical Era = +2 :health:

Medieval Era / Renaissance Era = +3 :health:

Industrial Era / Modern Era = +4 :health:

Trans-Human Era / Galactic Era = +5 :health:

Note that there are other factors too for requirements ...

Ancient Era / Classical Era

Req: Masonry | Obsolete: Architecture

- Low Density | Low Wealth = Good (Wood), Well OR Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

Req: City Planning | Obsolete: Architecture

- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Low Density | High Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Good (Marble), Sewer System, Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Well OR Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | High Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Good (Marble), Sewer System, Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

Medieval Era / Renaissance Era

Req: Surveying | Obsolete: Civil Engineering

- Low Density | Low Wealth = Good (Wood), Artesian Well OR Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Low Density | High Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Good (Marble), Sewer System, Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Artesian Well OR Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

- Medium Density | High Wealth = Good (Wood), Good (Bricks), Good (Marble), Sewer System, Aqueduct OR Water Pipes

Industrial Era / Modern Era

Req: Electricity | Obsolete: Megastructure Engineering

- Low Density | Low Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Access to Electricity

- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Low Density | High Wealth = Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | High Wealth = Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- High Density | Low Wealth = Skyscraper, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Access to Electricity

- High Density | Medium Wealth = Skyscraper, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- High Density | High Wealth = Skyscraper, Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

Trans-Human Era / Galactic Era

Req: Rapid Prototyping | Obsolete: Launch Arcology

- Low Density | Low Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Low Density | Medium Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- Low Density | High Wealth = Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | Low Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | Medium Wealth = Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- Medium Density | High Wealth = Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- High Density | Low Wealth = Skyscraper, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- High Density | Medium Wealth = Skyscraper, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- High Density | High Wealth = Skyscraper, Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- Super Density | Low Wealth = Arcology, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Access to Electricity

- Super Density | Medium Wealth = Arcology, Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

- Super Density | High Wealth = Arcology, Good (Marble), Sewer System, Water Pipes, Telephone Network, Computer Networks, Access to Electricity

Phew I think I covered all the factors I put in.

Note that its all done except for the rest of the icons. These will be the stats of the first version. Any adjustments of tweaks can be done later but I would like to have them tested with this first. No offense to your other ideas. Note I did include your defense idea in this as well as the % food.

Thunderbrd · Jun 24, 2011

Ok, that's good but we still have to consider that we can't have a building do - food and + production. It just doesn't work for the AI. It chokes them up. (Mind you if we could get the AI to consider negative effects we could get it to hold off on these buildings until after normal production and food buildings have been built... but this is something perhaps Afforess or Koshling could achieve... beyond my ability.)
Also... the Defense penalty is completely insignificant as it is there... i suggest -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%. That wouldn't have a huge impact either but at least enough to be noteable.

Koshling · Jun 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
Ok, that's good but we still have to consider that we can't have a building do - food and + production. It just doesn't work for the AI. It chokes them up. (Mind you if we could get the AI to consider negative effects we could get it to hold off on these buildings until after normal production and food buildings have been built... but this is something perhaps Afforess or Koshling could achieve... beyond my ability.)
Also... the Defense penalty is completely insignificant as it is there... i suggest -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%. That wouldn't have a huge impact either but at least enough to be noteable.

It's definately something I plan to look at soon

Hydromancerx · Jun 24, 2011

Thunderbrd said:
Also... the Defense penalty is completely insignificant as it is there... i suggest -5%, -10%, -15%, -20%. That wouldn't have a huge impact either but at least enough to be noteable.

I disagree. Since you can have one of each type they add up fast.

Low 1% x 3 = 3%
Medium 2% x 3 = 6%
High 3% x 3 = 9%
Super 4% x 3 = 12%

3 + 6 + 9 + 12 = -30%

Then take the last defense building is "Advanced Shielding" is +30%.

So 30% - 30% = 0%

But lets say we take an example from early game. Lets say ou built all the ancient era buildings which comes out to -9% and then you have a high wall of +50% The houses would reduce your defense to +41%.

Weird. Maybe the later era shielding needs to be improved. From just the base defense part it goes ...

Palisade = 10%
Walls = 30%
High Walls = 50%
Barricades = 50%
Barbed Wire = 50%
Cement Barrier = 50%
Advanced Shielding = 30%

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