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C2C - Housing

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Hydromancerx, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Clay - I think he is just pointing out to Hydro that the clay restriction is not realistic as it is implemented.

    I think he is suggesting a totally new civic to cover urbanization.
     
  2. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Its Bricks OR Stone for the more advanced buildings.

    Not all clays are useful clays. Without a real resource for lay the best i could do is have it linked to the marsh terrain.

    ----

    Note i think I will keep the buildings as they are except take out the negative food (since there are so many complains). And then make the negative defense more (as TB suggested).

    In addition I think we should apply the civics Afforess made for housing. You can see the full list here. And while we are adding the Housing Civics I think the Agricultural civics could be helpful too. Both could be useful with some tweaking to C2C.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    You have no idea then how many buildings I somehow cannot build due to not having bricks. Perhaps there needs to be a Goods(Bricks) from a building that can be derived from stone then? A LOT of housing buildings are not Bricks OR Stone but rather Bricks AND Stone. That's the way they are established anyhow. Perhaps not the way you meant them.
     
  4. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well much of them are linked to water related buildings that have OR. Some of them are stone or bricks or marble or cement. However then you have the AND bricks. Which means you could get away with having only bricks but not only stone.

    Originally i wanted it just to be linked to freshwater. But i did not see a tag for that. So I had to use the water buildings like the Well. Aqueduct or Water Pipes. The problem I run into now is that you cannot have 2 "OR"s. i can have say (brick or stone) AND (well or aqueduct). But then you might say well if the well and aqueduct already require building material such as stone or bricks then that should work. The problem then becomes what if they have only Water Pipes?

    Water piper require things like Lead or Iron or Aluminum or Steel. Those would not work for the house. Which lead us back to the bricks. Bricks suddenly become VERY important. Bricks are now very rare due to the clay limitation which is limited by the marshes.

    So we have 2 choices i suppose ...

    1. There is a freshwater requirement tag I was not aware of that i can check off for buildings so we can have stone OR brick requirement.

    2. We make bricks more readily available and less rare.

    Note we could also do both if possible or even a 4th choice by making building require no material requirements.

    Oh or even another requirement that makes buildings require a builder building such as Masons or Carpenters and then put the material requirements on those buildings instead.

    I am kind a of leaning to the last choice.

    In short i will figure something out to make it work better. Thanks for the feedback.
     
  5. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Pipes need not be restricted so. In ancient and medieval times, they used ceramic pipes, not just as sewerage and runoff, but for freshwater delivery also. Just as we have elevated trains, they had elevated water delivery. Aquaducts and even canals. You need to have metals or plastics when you pressurize water to drive it to other places.

    Brick. Brick is made from clay. Most clay will do, though not all clays are created equal. Clay is primarily removed from the ground, not so much from marshland. The clay is often dug up as much as possible and stockpiled for yearly use. The clay is ground and emulsified, much as the ancient chinese did, in water. Not usually to the level of slurry or slip, but to a very thick porridge. Ground or powdered additives are dumped into the mix, and its mixed to satisfaction. The mix is pressed into moulds, and dried sufficiently before kilning. And the rest is history.

    Brickworks are built, not on the goldmine, but rather on the most abundant supply of immediately useable clay available. I would say that a brickworks could be made on any grassland, plains, floodplanes, or marsh. Not so much water, desert, or mountain. Though future societies can certainly quarry the subsea clay. Definitely!
     
  6. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    A clayworks should be an improvement, and should peter out its clay after so long, or so much extraction. Leaving behind a barren tile of rock and muck. Though it would be amazingly rare for this to happen until modern machinery.

    This brings me to another issue of game mechanics. Typically speaking, a resource, once acquired, is available universally to your entire civilization. This is incorrect to reality. Is this mechanic still in effect in C2C? A resource should be available in quantity to the city only. Traded to other cities, or other civs, but in quantities available to cityscale only.
     
  7. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    The underlying codebase doesn't allow for that. While possible, it would be a big job to revamp the resource system to have this degree or flexibility, and I foresee problems with how it might interwork with traded resources. Might be something we could look at in future, but the reward relative to the required effort puts it some way down the priority list IMO
     
  8. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    When we had pottery as a resource it was one of the options. However We had to take it out and it was made into a "good". Sadly you cannot have "resource OR good" as a requirement. It has to be "resource or resource", or having "good or good".
     
  9. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    DH confirmed that his experiments agreed with mine, and the resource limit seems to have been solved, or at worst greatly relaxed. Should we therefore consider moving goods back onto the resource system, or would that just introduce other issues at this point do you think?
     
  10. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Hmm. All goods should be able to convert into goods. However we are still not 100% sure if you can have unlimited resources. If you are going to attempt to convert them then make a mod of the current goods. If they can all exist without the error then I can start converting over the other buildings that depend upon them and then just take out the goods mod.

    Note that it probably will take awhile to do since it took a long time to just make the goods system. Which is why if we do convert goods into resources you have to be 100% sure it will not mess up or run out of resources. Because goods we alt east know you can have unlimited buildings.
     
  11. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Sorry it's taken so long to respond. Been entertaining company.

    Should be a simple fix then. Make brickworks a city building. This allows you to build brick structures in your city. Make a National Brickworks as a National Wonder. This gives a free brickworks in each city. Make the National Brickworks dependant upon a resource, and call this resource Mineral Clay. Make it fairly rare. The National Brickworks can only be built in a city w such said resource in its zone of workable tiles. The national brickworks would provide increased revenue to its home city, above the amount a local brickworks might bring. Mineral Clay should reduce food production in tile by 1 I would think, and should be worked by a mine.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I am currently experimenting with adding resources to the dreaded gamefont files. At first I thought the "random font" problem was back but clearing the cache fixed the it.

    Making the resources balanced on the maps will be a different problem.
     
  13. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Should they be balanced?
     
  14. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    This is sort of how it works now. However replace the National Brickworks with the "Brick Mason" and the Local Brickworks with "Good (Bricks)" and that's what we have. The only difference is that you can make more than one "Brick Mason".

    Note that in the begining there were not "goods". It just went directly such as Clay Pit -> Brick Mason, rather than Clay Pit -> Good (Clay) -> Brick Mason -> Good (Bricks). The effect of this meant that all cities got clay, and as a result all cities could make a Brick Mason and then all could make bricks.

    Having buildings as "Goods" rather than resources means all cities get it and they cannot be traded nor limited by road systems. This of course means all cites become similar based on what you have access too.

    However its hard to please both sides since one side says "i want each city to be unique!" while the other side says "I cannot build anything. I don't have enough resources". So far I have not found a perfect balance to this, especially when it comes to common resources like clay.

    With wood we solved it by having 2 types, the general Good (Wood) and the resource Prime Timber. The Good (Wood) is easy to obtain and can be built in just about any city. While prime timber is rare. Perhaps there should be some sort of distinction between Common Clay and Rare Clay. And if so what would each be used for?
     
  15. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I'm afraid I don't know how to do that in terms of the XML. I can do C++ but much of the XML (especially for anything that relates to art assets) is still a mystery to me ;-) It's not urgent - someone who knows what they are doing should do whatever the minimal experiemnt is when they have time (after V14 I guess)
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I don't think it necessary to make clay a resource.

    A good? Yes. However we work out that goods need to be expressed. I still favor them as non-map generated resources.

    But how about this... I like the idea of making a special sort of improvement that can be built only on freshwater access tiles (water being important so as to make the processing and extraction possible) called a Clay Quarry.

    The Clay Quarry would give +1 :hammers: and from that somehow derive a uniquely available building that creates Good (Clay) in the city provided that the Clay Quarry was within the workable boundaries of the City Radius.

    Perhaps could grow in effectiveness, but shouldn't be quite as effective as a workshop in full force (though perhaps a bit better in the early stages as it wouldn't reduce food.) Probably should NOT be buildable on Tundra or Peaks. Limited to freshwater is about right. Will make for some very tough choices in some games on how to work your capital. Interestingly, with proper irrigation techniques it could be put in a string of farms maintaining an irrigation line while adding a bit o' production instead of food. Though this wouldn't be best as something you'd want to build everywhere.
     
  17. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I plan to add 'bRequiresFreshWater' to the building schema later today...
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Thunderbrd & Koshling

    It seems to me that if Koshling makes the 'bRequiresFreshWater'. Then you would not need an improvement at all. Because if you have freshwater then you can make clay. Just attach that to the Clay Pit building and then it should work.

    Thus the houses could still require bricks (now much easier to obtain) and then instead require freshwater rather than all the water related buildings.
     
  19. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Is it your plan to make all houses require bricks, or just highrise buildings?

    Remember also that pottery requires clay, as does ceramic sculptures. You may want to introduce a specialist option to your cities called Potters. Providing +3trade +1production +1 culture No buildings necessary until brick and tile making become the rage.
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    ERA1 = Ancient/Classical

    LD = Low Density
    MD = Medium Density
    HD = High Density
    SD = Super Density

    LW = Low Wealth
    MW = Medium Wealth
    HW = High Wealth

    ERA1_LDLW = Wood
    ERA1_LDMW = Wood + Bricks
    ERA1_LDHW = Wood + Bricks + Marble

    ERA1_MDLW = Wood + Bricks
    ERA1_MDMW = Wood + Bricks
    ERA1_MDHW = Wood + Bricks + Marble

    Its more or less the same for Medieval/Renaissance. After that it focused more on other factors and less on the materials. For instance the Industrial/Modern era High Density buildings require a Skyscraper. And the Trans-Human/Galactic Super Density require an Arcology.
     

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