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C2C - Housing

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Hydromancerx, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    @Kosh: Ok... that'd sort that matter out fine then.

    @Hydro: You're right... it would add up fast. Along the same lines, I think I mentioned earlier that we need some adjustments to Defense.

    Currently, no defense modifiers matter at all after 'high explosive' units hit the field. Therefore, right now, Arcology Shielding, as an example, has no effect whatsoever.

    We need some additional depth to some tags on Defense to compensate for this. And that's something we should be thinking of now with these as they subtract defense... currently, the penalty would only apply for non-high-explosive and after units, thus only early units would benefit attacking a city with a -defense penalty.
     
  2. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    That should be easy to change if you guys specify what you want. I was thinking maybe genericize it so that you can specify a defense amount together with a tech at which it ceases to apply, so high explosives then just becomes a specific case of the general way of specifying things. Actually it surprises me that 'high explosives' is hard coded as it is - I have not checked the code, but it's most unusual for specific techs to trigger anything in the DLL. Is it that there is an attributes on techs denoting whether they comprise 'high explosives' or something?
     
  3. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    When I feel better we can adjust things. I posted my current version in the other thread.

    As for the defensive buildings they do have other defenses like anti-bombing, anti-nuke and anti-espionage. Futuristic factors we should think about are ...

    - Laser Weapons
    - Disintegration Weapons
    - Anti-Matter Weapons
    - 4D Melee Unit(s) (shot projectiles won't be able to toggle dimensional plane in which it exists to physically damage 3D objects)

    But that's a whole other topic not related to housing.
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I'm thinking that there is a tag on the units actually, not the tech itself. (High-Explosives... used to be Gunpowder units in Vanilla.) I'm not sure where the dll coding for determining whether a certain city defense value counts against a unit or not.

    I think this is a realm where we could have a lot of fun actually. We could create defenses against certain types of units as well. This thinking could take us all the way back to the ancient age (a wooden stake line that increases defense against mounted units for example.) We also have the continuation of the basic walls being outdated by high-explosives methods. But I suggest we first establish a generic Defense bonus/penalty tag that doesn't GET outdated. In sparing amounts, a defense that can't be bombarded could be useful as well.
     
  5. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    I'm looking at this thread after being away awhile. This is an aspect I was exploring myself. Especially since the game contains the Health/Sickness aspect. As a city's health deteriorates w population density, the logical benefit of building such buildings would be health. From this all other things come. Also, a city should not be able to grow beyond a certain point w/out certain buildings. Rome could not have been so large w/out multistory buildings, water/sanitation, and roads for rapid and stable transportation.

    I would say a hut must provide health, as a caveman is much less likely to die of rain-driven pnemonia if he has a roof and walls. Things can be better secured, food better preserved against animals and weather-borne deterioration. With a stable center, any one or family or group can become more productive, by being more sheltered. Just the ability to hide behind something increases the battle benefit of a city. It won't stop bullets, but allows sneakiness.

    You've introduced a magnificent way to enhance the game. These buildings shouldn't hold any negatives as I've seen so far. The game must be made to require such city enhancements. I can't fathom a building type costing more food... Just the presence of sheltering structures should increase food levels.

    Default pan-unhealthiness should be higher, easy setting to change. Similar for unhappiness... The more people are sheltered and safe from perceivable threat, the less agitated they will be. Less likely to resist working, less likely to revolt.

    I would say a hut would beat a hovel ANY day of the weak. A city should start w hovels as a free building once a certain tech level is reached. Otherwise, the city should read as containing a building, Unsheltered Open Terrain. And provide no benefits, just an understanding. Once you build the huts, the Unsheltered Open Terrain is replaced, and unbuildable. But returns if the buildings are razed.

    Building-Dependant population caps is a system used in past games, but my be reflected using the health/sickness system. Buildings and techs that influence buildings increase a city's health, making it easier to grow. Want more than level 2? Huts... Want better health, attach the health percentage adjuster to Pottage/Aquaducts/Wells/Sewerage, etc... In addition to a raw health bonus to having such systems. Wells + 1 health. Aquaducts + 3 health. Pottage + 3 health. Every building also has a maintenance cost/factor. Take advantage of that. Bricks are better, but a house costs more to maintain than a hut...

    As for naming all the different levels of housing. That seems fine for the description of a class of housing that you seek to build, but I wouldn't try to make all those types of housing individually buildable. Huts, Cottages, Houses, Apartments, Highrises, Skyscrapers, Archologies... And in the description of these 7 levels of housing one details the great varieties of wealth and poverty. The question here becomes, 'what technologies are required to make a building available?'.

    The health effect of a housing building should be positive, as the housing is built singularly to support the needs of the people. The health problems come from the people crawling all over each other. The housing provides space for the people, to be apart from each other, to do their activities of daily living. Whole technologies are constantly being invented and forgotten that deal w these dilemmas.

    And it's not just a building that does a body good, its the discipline and traditions of a people. The Japanese for example, unable to obtain the raw materials to build higher, learned to calm panics w ceremony, learned to live in tighter spaces by daily organization, learned to overcome stresses of confinement w communal excercise and ritual. These things must be an essential aspect of any civilization! The daily behavior and disciplines of a civilization define it, possibly moreso, than the technologies they discover, or the way they change their physical surroundings.

    As for Health to Era... wouldn't be a function. Health benefit from functioning techs in a civ and the buildings/systems implemented.

    +0h Bare Nature
    +1h Huts
    +2h Cottages
    +3h Apartments
    +4h Highrises
    +5h Skyscrapers
    +6h Archologies

    These numbers are just rough. As we review the Sickness quotient of the per-population level, even at a 1 to 1 level, it quickly becomes apparent that technology becomes wildly influential on how we live.

    Tech bonuses to buildings are available also, yes? Electricity can increase the productivity of buildings by +1 or better. The lightbulb for example. Refridgeration can increase the health of a building, by storing food better and keeping homes cooler in hot weather. Buildings can vary widely by the use of such a tag.

    @Thunderbrd
    You said "to assign pop to 'staff' housing would also explain some additional gold income as those people would still be out shopping and being taxed on that etc..."
    I think this would be best done w specialists. They could be called Housekeepers, Groundskeepers, or possibly Servants. They would reduce gold, add production, add economy, and social stability.
    Though I'm opposed to adding different 'classes' of housing as a building option in the cities, I think this feature would serve well. Servants.
     
  6. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @BlackZiggerat

    All but the Grass Hut provide health. Its the lowest of the low when it comes to buildings. Note its poor conditions are not much better than living outside. it was also made this way so you could work up to better huts.

    The food levels were represent in the +% Stored after growth. The negative food is there to represent the inhabitants eating food. Note that the lowest huts have it the worst sicne food is wasted too due to the poor conditions of the primitive shelter. Later on more food is taken when the density is larger.

    Hovel was just the name given. If it did not look so ugly i would have called it Ancient/Classical Era Low Density Low Wealth. If you notice the tags of the buildings they are called stuff like "BUILDING_HOUSE_ERA1_LDLW" since I did not have names for them until later.

    Now your getting a bit more complex. If people don't want to build the buildings they don't have to.

    This has been discussed before. Said killtech said ...

    Which is why we have the buildings dependent upon population size rather than the other way around. Plus if a city grows without enough building then that means part of the population is homeless. Just because a city runs out of housing doesn't mean the population should not grow still.

    This was already addressed in the building requirements of each building.

    They are individually buildable by the era they are in. For instance no High Density buildings till you hit the Industrial Era. I am very happy with how they came out and put a lot of work into them. Unless you have small ways to tweak them, I am open to discussion but not an entire overhaul.

    Actually it goes by Era + Density

    Prehistoric = +1h
    Ancient/Classical = +2h
    Medieval/Renaissance = +3h
    Industrial/Modern = +4h
    Trans-Human/Galactic = +5h

    Then the density counters it with unhealthy ...

    Low Density = +0h
    Medium Density = -1h
    High Density = -2h
    Super Density = -3h

    Thus a Modern High Density Skyscraper would be +4h for era but -2h for high density which comes out to +2h overall.
     
  7. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Quote:
    Building-Dependant population caps is a system already in existance, and should be utilized. Want more than level 2? Huts
    This has been discussed before. Said killtech said ...

    My apologies, I corrected this w/out noting my correction. A problem I have w writing my thoughts while reading through a thread. My focus here is simply that a health factor to the building would fit into the mechanics better than saying vastly more food is lost in applying the building, when the opposite would be more accurately stated. As sickness effects food-to-growth, anything that provides health would properly impact this equation. A population of 20million people can't be achieved without spacing them out. Health impacts you understand. So, better houses, multistory homes, apartments, etc... all raise the health. The only trick in this is to adjust the base sickness factor, as has been discussed previously. No ambiguities. A city population will not grow if the sickness level is too high. Also, there really should be plague. I don't see it happening, so I'm guessing that random event isn't currently programmed in. Should be though. Another health value to homes. You can close the door and keep things out. Very healthy...
     
  8. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    Is there a way to set the game so that you can build multiple of one type of building w/in the same city? Multiple monuments? Multiple wells? Multiple Highrise complexes? If so, you could certainly compensate Sickness penalties, keeping in mind the maintenance cost of each building built as a deterrent to building too much...
     
  9. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    As for defense, I still can't see a building being a weakness to a city's military endeavors. If someone is shooting a gun, they must know where you are, or shoot blindly, or not even hit you. Cover and concealment are the two most vital defenses. Armor is a last resort. I would say any building is going to increase the defensive level of the city.
     
  10. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    As for defenses and high explosives. Specifically the weapons in question. A hut offers some defense against a bullet, but not any physical resistance. Only concealment defense. Great tactically. A cottage, better resistance, but not much. Same with a house. Brick is better. Highrise gives tactical advantage to the defender, as well as structural defenses against the attack, and against the targeting of the attack through concealment. Skyscrapers offer even more in all categories.

    This is simply true. So to recognize the impact of this reality, the attacker...
    Builds a bigger gun.
    Higher attack values.

    Men w machine guns vs Men w clubs in open terrain...
    Machine guns win...

    Men w machine guns vs Men w clubs in a roman city...
    ... Probably the Men w clubs win.

    If a clubber has an attack value of 2, then a spearman should be 10.
    If a spearman has an attack value of 10, then a swordman should be 20.
    If a swordman has an attack value of 20, then a rifleman should be 30+...
    Every scale up must increase attack and damage potentials.
    Rifles. Mortars. Bombs. Missiles. Nukes. Directed Energy Bursts...
    The attacking medium must also have some potential impact on the buildings themselves. Do the riflemen destroy half the colony trying to destroy its defenses?
    And is there a basic defense level to a city in this mod, or is it still up for grabs if not a single unit defends it?
     
  11. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Holy Moly! Quadrupedal post! :eek: Ever heard of editing your post?

    Even so you still have to go out to eat and get supplies. You cannot stay in your house forever.

    The only way would be like the Farmscraper where you just have I, II, III and they depend upon the one before it, but have the exact same stats. Note the building I have are suppose to represent an enitre zone of buildings. Thats why they say Grass Huts rather than Grass Hut, now.

    I think Thunderbrd summed it up well in this discussion ...

    In other-words its harder to defend your city from an enemy when your trying not to kill your own citizens in the process. Not to mention setting fire to your homes is much easier to do then setting fire to a city wall or castle
     
  12. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Plague is in and does show up.

    Undefended, Walk right in an it's yours.

    JosEPh
     
  13. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    @JosEPh II
    Really? I hadn't seen it. Is it purely random, or does it strike more often w city sickness?
     
  14. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    It seems to appear more in the Medieval Era and when unhealthiness has been around for awhile, but does appear in later eras..

    There is also a Random event for the Black Plague. But aside from letting unhealthiness go unchecked I do not know what triggers it. The Black Plague can spread to adjacent cities if you don't have the proper tech (was Medicine) or enough money to counter it.

    Again this is just from personal game experience. In fact one of my AI neighbors got hit with the Plague during last nights game session (around 1750+ AD).

    JosEPh
     
  15. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    I just can't wrap my head around buildings being a liability. The goal of war is to remove the people, or remove the power of the people. Effects of an attack. Destruction of property. I think that's a mechanic that exists in the game. Its been awhile. Destruction of populace. Don't know if thats a mechanic, but it definitely should be. Destruction of way of life... that's a morale issue there. If you demoralize a people sufficiently, they'll begrudgingly give in. A unit should have the chance to kill soldiers, kill populace, kill buildings, and demoralize. All at the same time. Some units would be more specialized in one way or another. Special Ops Insertion Teams to track and kill units. Terrorist units that poison water, set dirty bombs, or attack daycares. Razer units, that specifically seek to scorch earth, destroying city infrastructure, like mortar units. A battle in the field is ALWAYS easier that a city battle. Thats why EVERYONE tries to kill an attacker outside of their stronghold.

    It would be horrible suiside to send 50,000 troops into New York, Chicago, L.A., London, Paris... Well, maybe not Paris. You've got to Blitzkrieg a city down to kill its resistance. Or break their will. Every window is a snipers nest. Every parking lot is a mortar emplacement. Every street is an ambush waiting to happen.
     
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    It is purely random. There is no downside to unhealthiness at the moment beyond the reduction in food produced. I am trying to build an unhealthiness mod but it is slow going with the other stuff I am working on.
     
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Every point you make is the point made that buildings are a liability. They are, in sufficient volume, problematic in that they offer the same said protection and strategic opportunities to an attacker as well.
     
  18. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    @Thunderbrd
    @Hydromancerx
    First of all, I want to express how much I've enjoyed reading your thoughts as you've posted.

    The buildings provide benefits to any who use them. True. If an attacker has 'infiltrated' the city itself, then they would be able to bypass its defensive benefits. And certain units should be able to do so. Some won't have that option, as the attack would take place at city's edge or beyond.

    Also, such benefits should be available to those nestled into tile improvements. And the tile improvements get broken down during battles.

    Also to consider, civic choices should exist that reflect a civilizations willingness to sacrifice its own real-estate and citizenry. Thus altering the defensive values of a city.

    Also, what is the status of stealth in the game? One shouldn't simply be aware of the presence of an enemy force, especially if they are travelling by stealth.
     
  19. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Interesting line of thinking. Very interesting. I would suggest you work up a full layout on the civic chain there, then we can do some adjustment and debates. For example, I can see a civic along these lines, Savage Defenders, that makes it so that whenever they defend in a city they lose a population but it gives the defenders +50% defense. (I'd hate going up against that cuz its ruining the city as it goes too...) Also, can manipulate the chances of buildings being destroyed during defense etc. Then we would also have attack civics that would be reflective of similar themes... a Precision Strike value culture would try hard to make sure no buildings or population were destroyed during an attack.

    Love the idea overall!

    As for stealth, it could certainly be made more intricate but its got some simple specifics at the moment, invisible units and units that can detect invisible units etc... there are other things to polish at the moment. But it could certainly play into things to make it a bit more complex later.



    Ok, on the subject of housing but with deeper impact overall, clay. Only marsh is not enough. In fact, all soil has clay in it to some measurement. Its like one of the three qualities of soil that by defines soil by % content. So its pretty much everywhere. I suggest clay pits to be limited to Fresh Water. Late housing buildings are completely off limits without it too so its kinda ridiculous, especially if we're considering any population limitation factors in it.
     
  20. BlackZiggerat

    BlackZiggerat Chieftain

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    In what respect are you wanting to focus on clay? Most engineering relies on the most sturdy of foundations. Bedrock is the most desired. Or, are you thinking clay for bricks?

    Also, which civic system are we working w? I've recently begun using C2C, so I'll focus on the Civic system in use there.
     

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