C2C: Hunters, Healers and Recon Units

[Thunderbrd]

Colloquialism that I don't understand, at a guess I would say that you disagree. Which means that something else must be going wrong in my games then.

Uh... yeah. That's what I meant. Sorry if it seemed offensive in any way but its like saying, I call Bullsh*t but in a nicer way... could be a bit of a colloquialism I suppose. Of course, if you count the amount of colloquialisms aussies understand vs the amount of aussisms americans understand... I don't think there'd be any comparison in terms of volume so I'm surprised, in fact, that you found a 'colloquialism' at all. ('specially since I married an aussie! lol)

I wonder what would be going wrong then? What's the 'symptoms'? I suppose there could be some kind of new AND coding that puts something like that in place, though that'd be kinda a lame limitation to want to ADD...

Interesting, it would require python programming which is outside my knowledge especially the bit about getting it to work in multi player.

Hmm... ok... lets keep it in consideration anyhow. Might be a good project for me down the road too.

 

[strategyonly]

UPDATE Version 14 is out as of 3:15 am, a brand new way to play the game.

 

[strategyonly]

UPDATED 2 Aug 11, 4:15 a.m.

Some of the changes include, almost ALL new terrain, water, coastal waves, etc.

Lots of tweaks to the dll, to IMPROVE turn times, and especially the way the AI NOW works, really bug change on that, need info on the way they are working now.

Brand new way of Culture for each and every civ, has there own way of working the situation were they are placed on a map, with the resources that they have in vicinity.

Added Australia to the core mod as an Oceania Culture.

HALF the size of the old mod, which also means again better turn times.

This is only 1/8 of what "we" have done from version 14 to 15

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I've seen both scenarios with the same version. With the big neand spawn or if there are a lot of AI civs nearby, animals are extremely rare. But when neand numbers are low, and there aren't too many AIs around, the animals are more populace. I don't know if this is intentional, but I swear I see AI scouts and hunters camp outside my cultural borders to steal my animals

I actually think it would be better to limit Animal Captures to units with the Animal Hunting promotion (or Subdue Animal like in FFH). Normal combat units can kill animals for gold/food/hammers, but only those special units with the Hunting promo can subdue. And those units don't get "Better Goody Hut Results" and are generally weak vs normal units (although maybe they have a withdrawl chance), but strong vs animals. So instead of making 1 line of units that can do it all (Hunt-Subdue/Explore/Claim Goody huts), you have hunters for animals, and diplomatic types for goody huts. Anyone can explore I suppose.

The main problem is that I wrote Subdue Animals years before the hunting promotion was added.

@DH:

Is the Tracker that important or different that its more than TWICE the cost of the Scout? Mainly because it just got killed, just as easy as the scout? Just wondering? pic 1


Also anyone:

There seems to be ALOT of ships being built by the AI and just staying in-port area: see attached 2/3 pics

Also salt peter in FOUR different area ALL in same civ, seems weird? pic 4

Now that we have the "Percistance Hunting" tech perhaps it is time to review the Subdue Animals and the recon and hunting units. Current situation in black with suggestions in red.

Recon Units consist of two groups the Explorers and the specialist Hunters. Withe the Wanderer filling the position before specialisation.

Wanderer

• no bad goodie huts
• can attack
  - cost 10; upgrades to Scout and Tracker

Explorers

• no bad goodie huts
• defend only
• explore rival territory on "Right of Passage" because "defend only"
• board caravel (?) because "defend only"

Scout - Tracking, cost 15; upgrades to Explorer and Tracker
Explorer - Writing, cost 45; upgrades to Adventurer and Hunter
Adventurer - Compass, cost 140; Upgrades to Motorcycle line
​

Specialist Hunters

• no bad goodie huts (remove)
• can attack
• explore rival territory on "Open Borders"
• national limit of 5

Tracker - Tracking, cost 30 20; upgrades to Hunter
Hunter - Hunting, cost 40; upgrades to Ranger
Ranger - Writing and Falconry, cost 60; upgrades to Sharpshooter line
​

Buildings

Hunting Instruction - Percistance Hunting, expires Animal Husbandry, free hunting promotion (expire with sailing)
Master Hunter - Percistance Hunting, expires Never, free exp to ...​

Promotions

Hunting I - % verses animals, +3% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue, allow wooden ships to get this promotion)
Hunting II - % verses animals, +5% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue)
Hunting III - % verses animals, +8% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue)
Woodsman/Guerilla I/II/III - +5% chance to subdue​

Subdue Animals

Any unit has a base chance of 10% of capturing a defeated animal unit. This represents the occasion where a parent animal is killed and the young taken as pets.

Recon units (change to require hunting promotion) have a base chance of 40% (45%) of capturing a defeated animal.

All promotion bonuses are added to the base chance.

If the unit is subdued and it is a resource animal there is a chance that a resource of that type will be placed on the map if the terrain is right and no resources are on that plot already.​

 

[KingArthur666]

@DH
This sounds pretty good with one little correction. The wanderer (the very first recon/hunter) should be able to attack. It currently can and to change it would make hunting successfully more difficult.

 

[strategyonly]

I agree with some of it, but how about completely moving the Ranger to the tech in which you get him/her.
Also i think since we have the Neanderthals now, that the base of the Subduing of Animals ought to be a little higher also, since there are way less animals now.

Didn't we finally get the caravel thing fixed for explorers (defend only)yet?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I agree with some of it, but how about completely moving the Ranger to the tech in which you get him/her.

Also i think since we have the Neanderthals now, that the base of the Subduing of Animals ought to be a little higher also, since there are way less animals now.

Added to the proposal.

Didn't we finally get the caravel thing fixed for explorers (defend only)yet?

Can't remember if we did or not.

I think we should drop the cost of the tracker a bit. (Now added to the Proposal.)

 

[strategyonly]

Right now the Ranger unit shows up in the Falconry tech, i think it belongs in the Writing tech, were you get the actual unit. But its your area, so you decide.

I really like the part of the Hunting I about the wooden ships, i think more stuff can be done also to all the ships area.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Right now the Ranger unit shows up in the Falconry tech, i think it belongs in the Writing tech, were you get the actual unit. But its your area, so you decide.

I really like the part of the Hunting I about the wooden ships, i think more stuff can be done also to all the ships area.

I always research writing before falconry not the other way around so it shows up on my tech tree where I get the unit.

 

[climat]

AI prefer Scout to Tracker as far as I see. They usually upgrade Wanderer to Scout.
Personally, I don't build Scout often. I prefer Tracker.

 

[EldrinFal]

I always research writing before falconry not the other way around so it shows up on my tech tree where I get the unit.

So how is Writing (concept wise) a requirement for being a Ranger??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So how is Writing (concept wise) a requirement for being a Ranger??

The way things were added in. First there was the hunter. Then the tracker was added as a scout equivalent then the Ranger as an Explorer equivalent. then we added the Falconry tech.

So, you suggest we drop the writing requirement for Ranger. That could work.

 

[EldrinFal]

The main problem is that I wrote Subdue Animals years before the hunting promotion was added.

Now that we have the "Percistance Hunting" tech perhaps it is time to review the Subdue Animals and the recon and hunting units. Current situation in black with suggestions in red.

Recon Units consist of two groups the Explorers and the specialist Hunters. Withe the Wanderer filling the position before specialisation.

Wanderer

• no bad goodie huts
• can attack
  - cost 10; upgrades to Scout and Tracker

Hmm... I never use the Wanderer to attack because it is Str 1. I'd say it might as well be No Attack/Defend Only. I consider them more Scouts than Trackers, with Trackers being the combat variety branching off.

Explorers

• no bad goodie huts
• defend only
• explore rival territory on "Right of Passage" because "defend only"
• board caravel (?) because "defend only"

Scout - Tracking, cost 15; upgrades to Explorer and Tracker
Explorer - Writing, cost 45; upgrades to Adventurer and Hunter
Adventurer - Compass, cost 140; Upgrades to Motorcycle line
​

Should be able to board. All else looks good.

Specialist Hunters

• no bad goodie huts (remove)
• can attack
• explore rival territory on "Open Borders"
• national limit of 5

Tracker - Tracking, cost 30 20; upgrades to Hunter
Hunter - Hunting, cost 40; upgrades to Ranger
Ranger - Writing and Falconry, cost 60; upgrades to Sharpshooter line
​

Buildings

Hunting Instruction - Percistance Hunting, expires Animal Husbandry, free hunting promotion (expire with sailing)
Master Hunter - Percistance Hunting, expires Never, free exp to ...​

All agree, except I think Hunting Instruction should go obsolete with Military Training. Makes more sense to me on a concept level.

Promotions

Hunting I - % verses animals, +3% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue, allow wooden ships to get this promotion)
Hunting II - % verses animals, +5% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue)
Hunting III - % verses animals, +8% chance to subdue (remove extra chance to subdue)
Woodsman/Guerilla I/II/III - +5% chance to subdue​

I think the extra subdue chance should remain, but Hunting only available to the Specialist Hunter line and Wooden Boats (unless we end up with a Hunting Boat of some kind).

Subdue Animals

Recon units (change to require hunting promotion) have a base chance of 40% (45%) of capturing a defeated animal.
​

Not quite sure I understand this one. So all the units we've talked about are Recon units, so they all have at least 40% subdue?

 

[Koshling]

I agree with EldrinFal that the extra subdue chance should be on hunting promotions not woodsman (woodsman is too good due to the dbl speed through forests/jungles as well as its defensive bonus there, let alone adding subdue also). Hence I would leave subdue bonuses on the hunting line (and restrict that line to the hunting units, or at least restrict levels 2 and 3 of it), then remove subdue binuses from other lines.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I think the Scout, Explorer and Adventurer should get a farther sight range than the hunter specialists. This would make them more useful since you could use them as sentries.

 

[EldrinFal]

I think the Scout, Explorer and Adventurer should get a farther sight range than the hunter specialists. This would make them more useful since you could use them as sentries.

What about allowing the +1 Sight promotion with the Glass Blowing tech on those types?

 

[Hydromancerx]

What about allowing the +1 Sight promotion with the Glass Blowing tech on those types?

If you are implying that glass blowing would allow for telescopes/spyglasses or even eyeglasses that's much too soon. I ment that these units could infer the movements of troops at long distances without having to actually see them. More of a tactical tracking of enemy units by knowing scouting tactics.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Promotions are applied to groups based on the combat tag of the unit infos XML.

Currently the Wanderer, Explorer group and Hunter group are all UNITCOMBAT_RECON or for short recon units.

If we want the explorer group to have different promotions to the hunter group then we need a new combat class. This is fairly easy to do.

Changing the proposal now.

 

[Koshling]

What about allowing the +1 Sight promotion with the Glass Blowing tech on those types?

Slightly off-topic, but how about a promotion (not sure what units) that allows it to see invisible units. Or conversely a promotion for units that can see invis to sight range - either way something to make defending against invisible attackers a bit easier.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Promotions are applied to groups based on the combat tag of the unit infos XML.

Currently the Wanderer, Explorer group and Hunter group are all UNITCOMBAT_RECON or for short recon units.

If we want the explorer group to have different promotions to the hunter group then we need a new combat class. This is fairly easy to do.

Changing the proposal now.

You don't even need to make a new group. Just give the Explorer group a special promotion and any other promotion for that group can require that promotion. Note this special promotion cannot be obtained normally and is only given as free promotion on those specific units.