C2C: Hunters, Healers and Recon Units

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Thanks. Could you please turn these into buttons, thanks. They are the new sea hunter promotions. I almost have the pedia and help text making sense now. Some of the % against sea animals was for small or large sea animals so do not add together.

 

[climat]

Shouldn't Tradition - Hunting (which gives Hunting Instruction to every city) also be obsolete at Dueling? Currently, it is obsolete at Semi Automatic Weapons which comes later than that.
I think it may be a problem to people who don't use Unlimited Wonders option since it is a National Wonder.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Thanks. Could you please turn these into buttons, thanks. They are the new sea hunter promotions. I almost have the pedia and help text making sense now. Some of the % against sea animals was for small or large sea animals so do not add together.

Here you go.

 

[LumenAngel]

Kist an idea about Hunters... Is it possible to habe a "Slave heunter" prom, that increase chance to have captive (and give bonus against Civilias units?)?
I ask it here, because I think it can be a goo prom for Hunters (and maybe criminals)

And a bonus against hunters for animals unit? Hunters are so strong against animals, having some animals strong against hunter can be fun

 

[Thunderbrd]

Kist an idea about Hunters... Is it possible to habe a "Slave heunter" prom, that increase chance to have captive (and give bonus against Civilias units?)?
I ask it here, because I think it can be a goo prom for Hunters (and maybe criminals)

And a bonus against hunters for animals unit? Hunters are so strong against animals, having some animals strong against hunter can be fun

I've been musing on both concepts for a while now. I'm looking to soon make hunters much less worthy as an attack unit against other human units. So they may not be best suited to such a promo. However, Criminals? Oh yeah. Bounty Hunters pending

And back to hunters, if they do get strong at fighting other human units through their promos, I was considering a Cannibal promotion that would only be available if the nation were operating under Cannibalism that would make them very lethal against human units as well.

I also agree fully with the animal promo you mentioned, though I wouldn't make it directly against hunters... I was thinking, for serious carnivore types only, such as Ursines, Canines, Sharks etc, giving them access to a Man Eater line of promos that gives them the ability to fight back against the Hunting line of promos we have. Something like +50% vs Footman units type of thing. (Footman would be a new CC by that point that indicates a foot-bound 'humanoid' type, as opposed to riding, piloting, etc...)

 

[Hydromancerx]

And back to hunters, if they do get strong at fighting other human units through their promos, I was considering a Cannibal promotion that would only be available if the nation were operating under Cannibalism that would make them very lethal against human units as well.

Such a promotion would be great to have on the Papuan Cannibal culture unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Such a promotion would be great to have on the Papuan Cannibal culture unit.

As a free promo I presume? Yeah... definitely!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I feel Hunters and Recon units should be much stronger than criminal units of the same tech level but less strong than military units.

 

[strategyonly]

I feel Hunters and Recon units should be much stronger than criminal units of the same tech level but less strong than military units.

I positively agree here.

 

[LumenAngel]

I feel Hunters and Recon units should be much stronger than criminal units of the same tech level but less strong than military units.

Disagree
IMO :
- Recons are low power units but with good chance to disengage, good vision range, better result with tribal and a litle bonus against animals. Not usefull in a war, unless vision bonus.
- Hunters are low strengh specialized units, mainly against animals, but this knowledge about animals can be used againt mounted units too. Nearly useless in a war, unless ennemies harass with dogs units
- Criminal units are "assassin" or "pirate". Assassin are stealthy low power units (same level as recon) to kill civilians units or perform special mission. Pirate are nearly as strong as military units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Disagree
IMO :
- Recons are low power units but with good chance to disengage, good vision range, better result with tribal and a litle bonus against animals. Not usefull in a war, unless vision bonus.
- Hunters are low strengh specialized units, mainly against animals, but this knowledge about animals can be used againt mounted units too. Nearly useless in a war, unless ennemies harass with dogs units
- Criminal units are "assassin" or "pirate". Assassin are stealthy low power units (same level as recon) to kill civilians units or perform special mission. Pirate are nearly as strong as military units.

At the moment my explorers (the recon unit) are being killed by criminal units of an era earlier. This makes no sense. It means that explorers are no use in exploring as they die almost as soon as they leave your borders. In fact I don't bother with recon units after scouts for this very reason.

Shouldn't Tradition - Hunting (which gives Hunting Instruction to every city) also be obsolete at Dueling? Currently, it is obsolete at Semi Automatic Weapons which comes later than that.
I think it may be a problem to people who don't use Unlimited Wonders option since it is a National Wonder.

Yes they should both expire at the same time, I am just not sure which is the better tech for them to expire on.

Realism Invictus seems to cope with many more national wonders of this type than we have.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Disagree
IMO :
- Recons are low power units but with good chance to disengage, good vision range, better result with tribal and a litle bonus against animals. Not usefull in a war, unless vision bonus.
- Hunters are low strengh specialized units, mainly against animals, but this knowledge about animals can be used againt mounted units too. Nearly useless in a war, unless ennemies harass with dogs units
- Criminal units are "assassin" or "pirate". Assassin are stealthy low power units (same level as recon) to kill civilians units or perform special mission. Pirate are nearly as strong as military units.

Completely agree. Enhancing the scout's abilities to retreat would make them tough for stronger units, including those unseen, to kill. Makes them continue to be very useful. And what hunter would not want a dog along? With further work on a visibility mod, this would smooth out the balance factor between those three types. But scouts and hunters as strong units, stronger than assassinating criminals? Then what's the point of the criminals if they can't even take these lone explorers out?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So a guy with a stone weapon should always take out a pre gunpowder explorer! That is what I am finding. The criminal unit from one whole era before the explorer is killing every explorer (not scout) every time. The criminal unit is the same era as the scout (or guide) those I would expect a 50-50 outcome not 100% against explorer or below.

 

[strategyonly]

So a guy with a stone weapon should always take out a pre gunpowder explorer! That is what I am finding. The criminal unit from one whole era before the explorer is killing every explorer (not scout) every time. The criminal unit is the same era as the scout (or guide) those I would expect a 50-50 outcome not 100% against explorer or below.

I am NOT understanding this NEW discussion? Pls add units for me to understand what everyone is saying thx.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So a guy with a stone weapon should always take out a pre gunpowder explorer! That is what I am finding. The criminal unit from one whole era before the explorer is killing every explorer (not scout) every time. The criminal unit is the same era as the scout (or guide) those I would expect a 50-50 outcome not 100% against explorer or below.

Actually, I get what you're saying here. Makes sense that this is a frustration. The only thing I really disagree with is the differences in the proposed solutions. As it is, hunter line units have the strength enough to make one ignore the need for any city invaders - just build hunters and send them out to conquer the world of all things on the map. So strengthening them should not be an option - weakening is already called for.

And Criminals are growing useless - incapable of taking potshots at unaccompanied units as other unit types have been strengthened. Some have been suggesting some stronger criminals are needed. So weakening them doesn't seem an option.

But I agree that by era, 50/50 chance of survival should be present in an age peer conflict between the Criminal vs Explorer conflict. (At least Explorers should have a good shot at surviving - not necessarily at defeating the enemy.)

I do feel hunters should be particularly weak to criminal ambush (though they SHOULD have a promotionline that can give them a combat modifier % bonus vs Criminals - Cautious Approach - might even lead to being able to see invisible like dogs.)

However, scouts should be weak against everything just about, but very hard to kill. Enhancing the STRENGTHS of the Explorer class units is not the solution is all I'm saying. I'm suggesting we look beyond the box of % chance to slay or be slain. I'm suggesting Defensive Withdrawal should not be an option and scouts (and to a lesser extent even hunters) should be very good at getting out of those fights where they find themselves in over their heads.

 

[LumenAngel]

So a guy with a stone weapon should always take out a pre gunpowder explorer! That is what I am finding. The criminal unit from one whole era before the explorer is killing every explorer (not scout) every time. The criminal unit is the same era as the scout (or guide) those I would expect a 50-50 outcome not 100% against explorer or below.

For me, it's not strange that Criminals are good against Recon units. A 50-50 outcome is too low for criminal. A criminal must be a good killers against units that are not hundreds of men, but a little group, like recons.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Actually, I get what you're saying here. Makes sense that this is a frustration. The only thing I really disagree with is the differences in the proposed solutions. As it is, hunter line units have the strength enough to make one ignore the need for any city invaders - just build hunters and send them out to conquer the world of all things on the map. So strengthening them should not be an option - weakening is already called for.

And Criminals are growing useless - incapable of taking potshots at unaccompanied units as other unit types have been strengthened. Some have been suggesting some stronger criminals are needed. So weakening them doesn't seem an option.

But I agree that by era, 50/50 chance of survival should be present in an age peer conflict between the Criminal vs Explorer conflict. (At least Explorers should have a good shot at surviving - not necessarily at defeating the enemy.)

I do feel hunters should be particularly weak to criminal ambush (though they SHOULD have a promotionline that can give them a combat modifier % bonus vs Criminals - Cautious Approach - might even lead to being able to see invisible like dogs.)

However, scouts should be weak against everything just about, but very hard to kill. Enhancing the STRENGTHS of the Explorer class units is not the solution is all I'm saying. I'm suggesting we look beyond the box of % chance to slay or be slain. I'm suggesting Defensive Withdrawal should not be an option and scouts (and to a lesser extent even hunters) should be very good at getting out of those fights where they find themselves in over their heads.

WARNING Retort Coming in!!!

So basically this proposal is to Add more Promotions When the Glut of promotions Caused the problem in the 1st place??? .................. When will the reigns get drawn in on this runaway horse called Promotions? Isn't 100+ Promotions enough? It Is promotions that caused all this. Sometimes I think I'm playing Pokemon and need to get my "pocketdemon" to level 5 so I can beat a "boss" that is at level 4. PUHlease!!!

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

Why not make the Hunters base Strength lower and give them a defensive bonus. They'll still be good against animals (the hunting promotions will see to that), won't be good to attack combat units/cities except when defending against them (where they'll be only average). Or perhaps they should be weak defending against combat units but have a high defensive withdraw/escape capability.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Remind me are the following additive on promotions ie if promo 1 has 10% and promo 2 has 20% then a unit with both has 30%?

<UnitCombatMod>
	<UnitCombatType>UNITCOMBAT_ANIMAL</UnitCombatType>
	<iUnitCombatMod>50</iUnitCombatMod>
</UnitCombatMod>

If so then the hunter promotions are wrong and need to be modified a bit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Currently there are 556 Promotions available. What is the goal? 700? More?

The permutations are staggeringly high. Who can possibly know the best combinations? And where on the map those combinations are optimal vs each category of unit?

C'mon guys more maybe more, but more can be wasteful, superfluous, and counter-intuitive too.

JosEPh