C2C: Promotions

@ls612

Please tweak the following promotions now that the tech tree has been shuffeled.

City Garrison IV
Req Tech: Masonry

City Raider II
Req Tech: Sedentary Lifestyle

Hit and Run
Req Tech: Persistence Hunting

Shock I
Req Tech: Hard-Hammer Percussion (TECH_STONE_TOOLS)

Shock II
Req Tech: Chopping

Shock III
Req Tech: Composite Tools

Thanks! :goodjob:
 
Dancing Hoskuld said:
Forgot to post - I think orange is the colour to go with for the nomad line of promotions.
Click to expand...

Speaking of colors for promotions, I think we should be careful and plan out what colors we will be using in the future. Currently, it stands at;

Generic: Blue
Rarer: Purple
Warlord: Red
Hero: Green
Futuristic: No real background, looks good though

And, what we need to plan for;

Nomad: Orange
Alt-Timeline: ?????????
Galactic Map: ?????????
Mars/Lunar Map: ?????????
Progenitor promotions: ?????????

And who know what else. My point is that we need to make sure we don't run out of colors.
 
Have you considered what this will do to maps like archipelago and islands?

JosEPh
 
Hey guys, I'm humble enough to be kind about being ignored and all but why the resistance to giving melee units any city defense promo potential? I would've been against it myself until we introduced the town watch line in ROM (or was it in AND, I can't quite remember...). Ever since then I've been endlessly frustrated that there's no way to bolster a melee unit for city defense beyond the simple combat line (I consider this the 'unspecialized' unit setting). For the sake of classic balance I can understand keeping melee away from the full effect of the current City Defense line that has always been the realm of the archers but at least something, some kind of slightly better than Combat style focus seems to be reasonable.

I admit, if I got off my own ass and did those promos I could accomplish it myself but I'd like to first consider why there's resistance to the concept before working towards a goal nobody wants to see come to fruition.
 
I think that if you can specialize any type of unit towards anything then the reason for having many types of units becomes redundant. If I can bolster my Melee units, especially Town Guards and that line, with City Defense as well then I'll have no need to build any Archer Units to keep my cities safe. As it is those units already have an inherent extra City Defense.
Purely promoted units of any kind shouldn't only be better, they should be a lot better than other unit types at what they do. It's like giving Archers City Raider Promos.
Now, I think that defenders shouldn't only need to be able to defend cities but also stacks out in the wild. A pure defense promotion for that purpose might be considered, which would make those melee units that get those promos better at defending cities too, but no where near a pure City Defender. Like:
Defender I: -10% Attack Strength, +15% Defense Strength.
Defender II: -10% Attack Strength, +20% Defense Strength.
Defender III: -10% Attack Strength, +25% Defense Strength.
Of course not available to "only defend" units.

Cheers
 
Thunderbrd said:
Hey guys, I'm humble enough to be kind about being ignored and all but why the resistance to giving melee units any city defense promo potential? I would've been against it myself until we introduced the town watch line in ROM (or was it in AND, I can't quite remember...). Ever since then I've been endlessly frustrated that there's no way to bolster a melee unit for city defense beyond the simple combat line (I consider this the 'unspecialized' unit setting). For the sake of classic balance I can understand keeping melee away from the full effect of the current City Defense line that has always been the realm of the archers but at least something, some kind of slightly better than Combat style focus seems to be reasonable.

I admit, if I got off my own ass and did those promos I could accomplish it myself but I'd like to first consider why there's resistance to the concept before working towards a goal nobody wants to see come to fruition.
Click to expand...

I'm not resistant to doing something like that. I am just busy as heck with RL and other modding requests. I also forgot that Urban Combat was only for Gun units.

I am more than willing to make those this weekend, assuming art can be found/made for them. However, that "do-it-yourself" mentality is very useful, both for your mod goals and for C2C in general. In fact, it was originally my impatience that led to me learning to mod and becoming part of the team, so there is something to be said for it.
 
ls612 said:
In fact, it was originally my impatience that led to me learning to mod and becoming part of the team, so there is something to be said for it.
Click to expand...

Me too. I was getting tired of depending upon Afforess and other modders to do my requests. Also it was nearing the time that he wanted to leave Civ4 and move on the Civ5. So I wanted to make sure my ideas could be made even if he was gone.

Luckily with HAND and then eventually C2C I have been able to keep making my ideas a reality. But the bonus is working with a bunch of other modders in a collaborative setting. We can get so much more done! :high5:
 
I'll see if I can't work something out artistically for those at least... still trying to work my head around Gimp... surely I could make it far easier on myself if I could employ Fireworks for the task as effectively since I know that program very well.

Such thinking got me to mod too but my problem is I'm too caught up in playing the darn thing right now! ;)

Ok, so thanks for clarifying your stances on the matter. And IRT your comments BlueGenie, I generally agree. But we've made some units in the melee segment that are so geared towards defense only that I think its critical we develop some city defense for those... nevertheless, I wouldn't be against giving those promos an additional -10% attack penalty along the lines of your thinking there. Makes some sense to me.


On a side note that was brought to mind due to this discussion, I'm finding the Field Fighter line to be a bit rough. Considering the benefits of other comparable promotions I'm thinking its a bit underpowered. For one thing, shouldn't it give some extra movement on flat terrain like Forestry and Guerrilla do for Forests and Hills? For another, I'd just like to see the hill penalty reduced a bit, like perhaps by half of its current penalty - not eliminated entirely as it does make sense. It's just that when you get a highly experienced unit that's running out of other things to promote into, it kinda sucks to begin counteracting your Guerrilla promotions with the field fighter line.
 
Ok, got some graphics put together (I THINK correctly... let me know if there's any problems with them!) for the Streetfighter line. So to reiterate and edit according to previous commentary:

Streetfighter I
+15% City Defense
+15% City Attack
+5% vs Melee
-10% Attack

Streetfighter II
+15% City Defense
+15% City Attack
+5% vs Mounted
-10% Attack

Streetfighter III
+15% City Defense
+15% City Attack
+5% vs Archery
-10% Attack

Streetfighter IV
+20% City Defense
+15% City Attack
+5% vs Melee, Mounted, Archery
-10% Attack

All available for Melee units. The idea is that melee should be allowed to specialize, in a lesser manner, in city defense. While doing so, they simply gain experience with fighting in an urban environment which on one hand serves them on city attacks as well, but on the other has them so specialized in defensive maneuvers in an urban environment that tends to reduce their effectiveness on all attacks. It can be useful to add to highly specialized city attack troops to give them not only some minor bonus to city attacks but also allows them some strength when the enemy attempts to retake the city and smash the attacking force.
 
Concern: Can Melee units get City Raider still too? If so how much can they now have in total bonus to attacking cites?

Cheers
 
All four promotions in total, this would add nothing more than +20% city attack value since much of the city attack is countered by a penalty to attacking in general. More concerning is how many OTHER means melee units have to develop strong degrees of city attack % that has not been balanced against the ultimate potential of defenders. For enhancing city attackers with the Streetfighter line, one would be better off having utilized simple Combat promos.
 
Or with a high enough level having Combat VI, Street IV and Raider V.
Part of the concern is also that Pure City Defenders don't go around massing up any XP really, they stay put defending the city, while the melee units that are used to attack with do gain XP and thus more promotions in general.
One could argue that cities also have an inherent defence bonus but that's usually taken away by siege engines anyway so in my opinion shouldn't factor in when setting up promotions and such. Unless... If City Raider ignored part of the city defence rather than gave a big bonus to city attack the +% to attack cities wouldn't be a problem any more (and might fit the name "raider" better). Maybe even had a plunder :gold: :science: bonus on city attack, possibly even reduction of stored :food: and current :hammers: on production regardless of if the unit survived or not. An increase in withdrawal chance on City Attack, and City Attack only, would fit with how I see a Raider to be anyway. Raid, not fight til death.
Basically have halved bonus on City Attack and add other benefits.
Just a thought.

Cheers
 
@Thunderbird: I don't think that you did the icons correctly, the files are all different sizes, all the icons are supposed to be 64 by 64 px .dds files with Alpha channel. These are about 6 KB.

Your icons range from 33 to 81 KB, so I figure you probably got the dimensions wrong.
 
naw... its not the dimensions causing larger files... its the layers. I just added layers on top of layers thinking that .dds files would flatten them. Not to worry, easily fixed.

@Genie: Some interesting thoughts. I've always thought the City Raider line should've been City Invader instead for much of the same conceptual terminology rationale. Pretty much all of those ideas would take some new tags and dll work to achieve but they all seem cool for a truly 'city raider' concept. The argument about city defenders not amassing xp is also fairly valid. I've seen some city defenders become quite powerful when the attack force isn't quite strong enough due to a quantity over quality attack style delivered by the ai, but commonly, I think you're right.

Now, in my experience, speaking in terms of equal tech opponents, generally, no amount of city attack power can overwhelm the city defenses without sufficient siege support. (Well... there IS the surround and destroy style that can take out weaker defenders in lagging culture cities.)

And the opposite tends to be true as well, that once sufficient siege support has been applied, it doesn't take all that experienced an attack force to squash the city defenders. What would really go a long ways in making the after siege battle more exciting would be to add a line of buildings that would nearly eliminate all incoming collateral damage from bombarding or attacking siege units.

And along the lines of your consideration of defenders not amassing xp, it might be worthwhile to have a training building that adds 1 xp to one unit in the city per round, cycling through so it gives equal coverage to all units after an amount of rounds equal to the amount of units in the city. After a time, this will make for some very profoundly potent defenders and would help the earlier created defenders keep up with the modern training expectations of the later built ones. Could it be used to enhance attack armies? Sure, but at the cost of leaving that city's defenses less trained. (EDIT: My wife points out this may be too strong and it should only be handing out an xp per round while at war... I really like that idea!)
 
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