C2C: Promotions

[Thunderbrd]

Well in my view the unit should be the spear man with promotions (starts with wooden tip no armour and no shield; upgrades promotions to hardened wood tip, stone tip, obsidian tip, copper tip, bronze tip and iron tip; no armour, hide armour, metal armour; no shield, whicker shield, wooden shield, metal shield) upgrades to phalanx (starts with copper tip, metal armour and metal shield) or pikeman ( starts with iron tip; metal shield and armour)

Or maybe abetter way of saying it is promotions available to spearman are:-

start with wooden tip -> hardened wood tip -> stone tip -> obsidian tip -> copper tip -> bronze tip -> iron tip
start with no armour -> leather armour -> metal armour
start with no shield -> wicker shield -> wooden shield -> metal shield​

Promotions are preserved or merged to base unit in the line

Spearman -> Phalanx -> Pikeman​

Atl-Atl still get spear upgrades but can't have shield and can only get up to leather armour. Same for archers.

One advantage to this is that you could get away with fewer unit graphics

This is not far off from what I've got envisioned actually. But the javelin line will be somewhat uniquely different than the spear line. Spears would be the earliest form of polearm whereas javelins represent the skirmish line. I'm thinking they should get a little first strike, light armors and weaponry, and be considered both melee and archery. Their current anti-archery factor is something I'm debating. I may end up looking to remove that in favor of a support factor they may offer. One of the dynamics of early battlefields that we have so far found impossible to replicate in Civ is the teamwork dynamic between a frontal melee line and a back distance line. I'm considering a way to implement this dynamic and Archers and Javelineer units, which would give the javelineer style role its strength as a unit that can functionally operate in either role.

I won't do any of this without thorough discussion with you guys but this is kinda a heads up as to what this whole conversation has been causing to mull about in my head. In short, it would mean implementing a new tag 'iSupportStrength' and whenever a unit is in a fight, it references the other units in its own plot and asks for the strongest of iSupportStrength values in that stack of allies and adds that as a percentage bonus modifier for its own combat strength in the fight.

 

[Cyrusfan]

Don't great generals do something like this (the back distance line)? I mean could you give back distance line units command effect that only applies to melee units, GG range 0, 1 command point, and no access to the GG promos?

 

[Thunderbrd]

That'd be harder to implement than a new tag value as mentioned. Not bad thinking though. The problem with that method would be that even giving such units command powers would bleed over into their other abilities and promotions adding command power. Its hard to explain but suffice it to say it would complicate things greatly to try it that way from what I understand there. Normal units and command abilities were not designed to co-exist on the same unit too well.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

This is not far off from what I've got envisioned actually. But the javelin line will be somewhat uniquely different than the spear line. Spears would be the earliest form of polearm whereas javelins represent the skirmish line. I'm thinking they should get a little first strike, light armors and weaponry, and be considered both melee and archery. Their current anti-archery factor is something I'm debating. I may end up looking to remove that in favor of a support factor they may offer. One of the dynamics of early battlefields that we have so far found impossible to replicate in Civ is the teamwork dynamic between a frontal melee line and a back distance line. I'm considering a way to implement this dynamic and Archers and Javelineer units, which would give the javelineer style role its strength as a unit that can functionally operate in either role.

I won't do any of this without thorough discussion with you guys but this is kinda a heads up as to what this whole conversation has been causing to mull about in my head. In short, it would mean implementing a new tag 'iSupportStrength' and whenever a unit is in a fight, it references the other units in its own plot and asks for the strongest of iSupportStrength values in that stack of allies and adds that as a percentage bonus modifier for its own combat strength in the fight.

Doesn't Dale's Combat Mod (DCM in RevDCM) feature "Stack Attack" do that when it goes stack against stack? Yes I still use that option as the only known bug is the one where sometimes you need to click on the mini map to end the combat.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't really think it does. So far as I can tell in the combat section, it doesn't work quite like that. I haven't given it the full study but it seems to mostly just continue the attack with the next best units repeatedly until full resolution is achieved. I also found some buggy situations in there that I've resolved (and its quite possible the one you mentioned is included as there were some missed lines of necessary coding that appear to me to be capable of creating such an effect when left out) but I haven't been completely thorough with a full analysis yet as what I needed to adjust didn't require messing with the first portion of the coding there.

Nevertheless, I didn't see anything that would suggest the other units add support to the main attacker. It's possible there could be some python interaction in that option that I don't see, and I wasn't LOOKING for that, but I'll check it out to see since you've mentioned it. There MAY have been some originally intended support from archer bombard but from what I could tell, the structure was there but the content was omitted (sadly not even commented out, just removed or never included), presumably due to bugs in the archery bombard mechanism.

Regardless, there's certainly room for more teamwork improvements to be built into units themselves.

 

[Nimek]

start with wooden tip -> hardened wood tip -> stone tip -> obsidian tip -> copper tip -> bronze tip -> iron tip
start with no armour -> leather armour -> metal armour
start with no shield -> wicker shield -> wooden shield -> metal shield

You talking about free promotions that are gived by access to such resources?
That kaind of unit promotions will be ok. Imagine ex swordsmen with iron sword is way better than swordsmen with bronze sword cause bronze is worse than iron. when you hit one with another bronze sword probably will broke.

Nevertheless, I didn't see anything that would suggest the other units add support to the main attacker

In Realism Invictus is aid support system. Did you played that mod?

 

[strategyonly]

In Realism Invictus is aid support system. Did you played that mod?

Never heard of that before, since you played it, can you explain alittle more about it, thx.

 

[Nimek]

When more than one unit stands on the same tile they give one each other a aid promotion. For ex. If you infantry stands in the same tile with bombard they together have two free aid promotions 1 siege aid from bombard (+ 1 first strike) and light aid from infantry (+ 5% to strengh)

In that aid support combat system is important to attack with stacks of multiple types of units cause every unit type gives diffrent aid support promotion. There is ex recon support, mobility support etc. It is the best combat system in civ IV i think. Add it to C2C please

Install that moduke and try it is awesme

 

[Thunderbrd]

Those sound like some really good ideas... would also not be a bad idea to overlap into what I suggested previously. But I love the concept you're suggesting there. THAT is a mod I'd like to take a look at merging, potentially really soon. I may just have to play it a bit to get the gist and then come back and set something like it up. I could implement such a mechanism fairly easily I think. Though I wonder if they did much to help the AI consider the system in its planning or if they designed it in a way that really didn't require much tweaking to the ai...

 

[ls612]

Those sound like some really good ideas... would also not be a bad idea to overlap into what I suggested previously. But I love the concept you're suggesting there. THAT is a mod I'd like to take a look at merging, potentially really soon. I may just have to play it a bit to get the gist and then come back and set something like it up. I could implement such a mechanism fairly easily I think. Though I wonder if they did much to help the AI consider the system in its planning or if they designed it in a way that really didn't require much tweaking to the ai...

I would really like to see what you've already done in a stable configuration before adding more things, otherwise it will always be "just one more thing".

 

[Thunderbrd]

I completely agree where that last module is concerned. Its a possible 'next step' but yeah... better to balance out what we have before stepping into that.

 

[Nimek]

If you want to implement it. Give me full list of units types (only land and water) cause in c2c we have more unit categories than in Realism Invictus and i will prepare the list of aid promotions.

I am php html js coder. If someone give mu tutorial how to implement this maybe i will able to help.

 

[ls612]

If you want to implement it. Give me full list of units types (only land and water) cause in c2c we have more unit categories than in Realism Invictus and i will prepare the list of aid promotions.

I am php html js coder. If someone give mu tutorial how to implement this maybe i will able to help.

It's an SDK thing, meaning you need to know C++ to make it happen.

 

[zeinul]

siege engineering promotion is not working properly yet.

 

[ls612]

siege engineering promotion is not working properly yet.

What do you mean by that?

 

[zeinul]

it has combat III prereq which is not available for siege units.

 

[ls612]

it has combat III prereq which is not available for siege units.

Doh! It should be Bombard II. I'll go fix that.

 

[zeinul]

can someone make chivalry to be able to flank all siege units instead of some specific ones. most of them have canon flanking, but ai almost never builds canons. and this bonus becomes useless.

 

[Nimek]

It's an SDK thing, meaning you need to know C++ to make it happen.

But promotion properties are in XML files i think? so someone should copy aid promotion engine from Realism Incictus and someone else can edit XML files to add this promotions properties. Am I right?

 

[strategyonly]

I still dont understand how the Banditry works, inside of my area, outside of my area, in their/my city etc?????

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11728329&postcount=6653