C2C: Promotions

[Koshling]

The 10 lines of code were for the first two and it was python onUnitMove, a good place to start.

AH. I think the onUnitMove is currently disabled for performance reasons isn't it? I know we added XML enabling for classes of callbacks because they were frequent and had high overhead, and I think that was one of them. If so enabling it again is possible but will likely cost a significant increase in turn times, so whatever mechanic we eventually adopt would be better done in the DLL.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro:

Why in the world would a robotic probe take terrain damage from the moon or mars? That is all you are really going to be having, either that or people in spacesuits, who will also be immune to the hostile environment. Remember, the martian rovers (spirit and opportunity) that landed in 2003 were only expected to last for 3 months, and one of them is still running today, 8 years later. I think that this idea of terrain damage needs to be rethought for Multi-Maps.

Robotic rovers would get these promotions. Its the other unprotected units that they are needed for.

If the goal is to slow down exploration maybe you could make early Lunar and Martian units incapable of operating outside your culture? The culture would be analogous to a "supply area" were you can provide the food and oxygen needed for humans to operate, as well as shelters in case of sandstorms, extreme temperatures etc.

A line of defenceless robotic probe units with unlimited range could exist in order for exploration.

As you tech up, units gain greater independence from limitations like these, representing better technology and a more advanced local infrastructure.

That's a good point. Without maintenance the rovers eventually die off.

 

[AIAndy]

Could create a bool tag that's only there to invoke a description I suppose... Otherwise I'm not sure if there's a way to really get the Outcome system to be extraordinarily explanatory in unit/promo helps and pedia screens. That would be for AIAndy to sort out but I could help with the first solution if you've got a bit of patience.

You could scan all outcome types in the promotion help text function and add some text if the promotion is referenced in there. For performance reasons you might want to mirror the information in the promotion info class (but not as an XML tag, just run some code after all info classes are read that adds the information to the promotion info). That mirrored information is probably also useful for AI evaluation of the promotion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Its scary to me that most of that actually makes sense now. lol
(note: first post on my new computer )

Now that method would require some serious hardcoding unless you had generic text tag labels, which would probably be a good idea here. Something like: TXT_PROMOTION_OUTCOME_ONE or something to that extent, then program out a number of possible outcome texts.

I'm not sure about what you meant about:

For performance reasons you might want to mirror the information in the promotion info class (but not as an XML tag, just run some code after all info classes are read that adds the information to the promotion info).

but we should also put these descriptions not only in the promotion help but in the combined current unit ability descriptions too.

As for being useful for ai evaluation of the promo, I would think we'd want to add an ai weight tag to the outcome system so that each outcome could be given an ai value that could easily be cycled through and referenced in the promo ai selection process.

 

[Nimek]

I found a bug (c2c v25) that Clockwork Golem has only one promotion avaiable: pilage.

 

[ls612]

I found a bug (c2c v25) that Clockwork Golem has only one promotion avaiable: pilage.

But, if we give it a different unitcombat (that is the issue), it gets odd things like Martial Arts, the Religious promos, and Leadership.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I found a bug (c2c v25) that Clockwork Golem has only one promotion avaiable: pilage.

But, if we give it a different unitcombat (that is the issue), it gets odd things like Martial Arts, the Religious promos, and Leadership.

For some reason it has a unit combat class of robot but non of the robot promotions are available at this time. This shows a distinct lack of understanding of what colockpunk is.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Maybe the Clock Golem should be a Siege Unit?

EDIT: Or possibly make a new promotion that cannot be given but the Clockwork Golem starts with that unlocks Golem specific promotions? That would make it so that other robots cannot get them but still keeps it as a Robot unit class.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't understand the struggle here...

Why aren't we simply defining it as a new combat class, say, Automoton, and then define the promotions you want it to have access to as being allowed for Automotons?

 

[Hydromancerx]

An entirely new class for one unit?

 

[ls612]

An entirely new class for one unit?

Yeah, that sounds excessive. I don't have any good ideas though, as the alternative would be a dozen new promotions for one unit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't think it will remain limited to simply one unit down the road. I can see an Automoton line possible nearly every step of the way down the punk techs at least. Automoton animals... etc... I thought we'd pretty much only scratched the surface in that direction as a tantalizing invitation to further modding really.

And its not as if there's any real reason to restrain the list of unit combat classes. Given that at their core they have minimal definitions themselves, its less excessive to add a combat class for any given reason than it is to add a building.

Furthermore, consider the appropriateness of the situation:
1) Nothing else is LIKE the Clockwork Golem.
2) It fixes the problem.
3) We're having the problem because this thing doesn't fit any of the molds we have so far.
4) It would lend the Golem to a number of immunities as well (no anti any combat class type promos would affect it. Diseases and poisons wouldn't affect it unless specifically designed to.(future note) which such a thing would have due to its nature.

I could probably go on.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Right now the Clockwork Golem is kind of terrible.

When it was a Melee unit it was amazing because it could get Martial Arts, religious promotions, and all the XP available to Melee units when it becomes available, but as it stands, it's hilariously weak compared to the Da Vinci Tank. Not only is it weaker, it also can't upgrade. (Does it upgrade to the robot units eventually? Even if it does, since it gets no promotions there's no point to holding on to it for centuries.)

Giving it its own combat class (with suitable promotions) would solve part of that, as would giving it Steampunk and Dieselpunk upgrades.

I still think the Da Vinci Tank is a bit strong, or, if that's how powerful the -punk units should be relative to their era, the Clockwork Golem is too weak. An 11 point gap in base power is equivalent to two whole levels of development, like Arequebusier to Rifleman.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Maybe we SHOULD put it back as a melee unit type. Why could you not program a Clockwork Golem to do Martial Arts?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think I had a clockwork jaguar somewhere.

 

[ls612]

Maybe we SHOULD put it back as a melee unit type. Why could you not program a Clockwork Golem to do Martial Arts?

Why should you give an inanimate object in the 16th century a religious promotion?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Why should you give an inanimate object in the 16th century a religious promotion?

Why shouldn't it?

The religious promotions aren't blessings of active and involved gods, they're techniques developed by those particular religious or cultural groups. If you can make an automaton that can walk and fight, why can't you make one that can walk and fight with those specific techniques? Those techniques are part of how your nation's warriors fight and thus what your automaton's combat style is probably patterned on.

Is that completely unrealistic? Yeah. It isn't any more unrealistic than having a bipedal war automaton in the first place, though.

We have trouble getting bipedal robots to walk today, much less fight. The clockwork golem is the only one of the -punk units that not only wasn't used historically, but probably couldn't have been. (Actual clockwork automatons weren't bipedal; the most famous example was a mechanical lion, IIRC.)

Since it's a 100% rule of cool unit already, I don't see any reason not to make it even cooler by once again allowing it to be a kung fu clockbot.

 

[ls612]

Why shouldn't it?

The religious promotions aren't blessings of active and involved gods, they're techniques developed by those particular religious or cultural groups. If you can make an automaton that can walk and fight, why can't you make one that can walk and fight with those specific techniques? Those techniques are part of how your nation's warriors fight and thus what your automaton's combat style is probably patterned on.

Is that completely unrealistic? Yeah. It isn't any more unrealistic than having a bipedal war automaton in the first place, though.

We have trouble getting bipedal robots to walk today, much less fight. The clockwork golem is the only one of the -punk units that not only wasn't used historically, but probably couldn't have been. (Actual clockwork automatons weren't bipedal; the most famous example was a mechanical lion, IIRC.)

Since it's a 100% rule of cool unit already, I don't see any reason not to make it even cooler by once again allowing it to be a kung fu clockbot.

The religious promos I always felt were expressions of those individual units' faith. A Robot has no faith, and so should not receive religious promos. That said, this is an alt-timeline unit, so there might be some argument that it could still be melee, but when it was a melee unit it was OP from a gameplay standpoint, so it isn't that simple.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I agree with LS on the religious promos. That leaves us with only one solution... which I simply don't get why there's any reluctance for in the first place.

 

[Nimek]

I Thought that clockwork golem is a robot but controlled by man. So the unit itself can have religion promos cause man controll him (Golem itself has no artificial intelligence it is only a warfare tool like canon or something)