C2C: Promotions

[B.I.B]

Hi,

going into war I used the Mercenaries gov. to maximize the XP for my army as I built it. When building my siege engines (korean forework wagons) I noticed that I could easily access very imho overpowered promotions fairly easy (geting the first star for free they were just like two levels up). I don't recall the name but it was the purple siege promotion that looks like a castle and gives like 20% defense bombard or something.

Now my army has five of these wagons and I can more or less destroy all a citys dfefense in a single turn with them.

At least for me that takes away much of the fun with warfare since there's basically no cost attached to my siege engines (I only used mercenaries when building them) and there are no extended periods outside of enemy cities or nothing.

I believe that these promotions should be nerfed, or at least be moved in the promotion chain so that it isn't as easy to get them (with the mercenaries gov I had all five siege engines have level three of this one effectively giving them over 60% defense bombard per turn.


On another note I found the price for all the XP Merceneraies give to be rather low. Sure, my economy was really bad while building my army, but as soon as the army was built I just changed away from Mercenaries and lost all that extra cost. In my eyes my mercenaries wouldn't stop being mercenaries just because I changed gov, so wouldn't it be cool if the Mercenaries civ gave a free promotion for units built under it instead (and the free XP), and the promotion would be what raised the support for the unit. That way all the high XP units built under MErcenaries would keep the high cost even though a change of gov occured.

Best Regards and thanks for a great mod
Jon

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hi,

going into war I used the Mercenaries gov. to maximize the XP for my army as I built it. When building my siege engines (korean forework wagons) I noticed that I could easily access very imho overpowered promotions fairly easy (geting the first star for free they were just like two levels up). I don't recall the name but it was the purple siege promotion that looks like a castle and gives like 20% defense bombard or something.

Now my army has five of these wagons and I can more or less destroy all a citys dfefense in a single turn with them.

At least for me that takes away much of the fun with warfare since there's basically no cost attached to my siege engines (I only used mercenaries when building them) and there are no extended periods outside of enemy cities or nothing.

I believe that these promotions should be nerfed, or at least be moved in the promotion chain so that it isn't as easy to get them (with the mercenaries gov I had all five siege engines have level three of this one effectively giving them over 60% defense bombard per turn.


On another note I found the price for all the XP Merceneraies give to be rather low. Sure, my economy was really bad while building my army, but as soon as the army was built I just changed away from Mercenaries and lost all that extra cost. In my eyes my mercenaries wouldn't stop being mercenaries just because I changed gov, so wouldn't it be cool if the Mercenaries civ gave a free promotion for units built under it instead (and the free XP), and the promotion would be what raised the support for the unit. That way all the high XP units built under MErcenaries would keep the high cost even though a change of gov occured.

Best Regards and thanks for a great mod
Jon

Your first point we've actually been discussing. Looks like we'll be enforcing those purple promos are made a bit more difficult to get. How, exactly, this will be done I'm not sure but this would be the right thread to discuss it. I know it's been mentioned that a Great General may provide the nation with access. I've noticed, as you, that's one of the more powerful of those 'elite promos'.

The idea about mercenaries... something like that may not be a bad idea. I'm not sure if civics can give free promos or not without looking a bit deeper but it would be easy enough to setup since traits can.

 

[LumenAngel]

The idea about mercenaries... something like that may not be a bad idea. I'm not sure if civics can give free promos or not without looking a bit deeper but it would be easy enough to setup since traits can.

Already done with some civics. An auto-building give the free promo.

 

[Hydromancerx]

On another note I found the price for all the XP Merceneraies give to be rather low. Sure, my economy was really bad while building my army, but as soon as the army was built I just changed away from Mercenaries and lost all that extra cost. In my eyes my mercenaries wouldn't stop being mercenaries just because I changed gov, so wouldn't it be cool if the Mercenaries civ gave a free promotion for units built under it instead (and the free XP), and the promotion would be what raised the support for the unit. That way all the high XP units built under MErcenaries would keep the high cost even though a change of gov occured.

I agree that a promotion should be given to all combat units built under Mercenary civic. It could just be one that gives extra cost no matter if you change to another civic.

Already done with some civics. An auto-building give the free promo.

Yeah Banditry Civic already does this. It makes an Auto-Build building called Civic (Banditry) which gives a free promotion to all new units called Marauder. Since the building requires the civic to be made it will automatically deactivate the building if you chnage civics.

So all you need now is a building called Civic (Mercenaries) and a new Mercenary promotion that adds a gold cost to the unit. No need to give it other bonuses since your already getting the HUGE XP bonus from the civic.

EDIT: Looks like there is already a Civic (Mercenaries) building that also gives Marauder promotion. I am guessing we should instead replaced it give free Marauder promotion an give the free Mercenary Promotion.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I would so prefer it if there were a free promo tag directly on the civic and it wouldn't be tough to do! The autobuildings are a massive pain for the player to track down the details on!

 

[olduser]

The autobuildings are a massive pain for the player to track down the details on!

Not just the player, AI also!!

 

[strategyonly]

Can you PLEASE get something in for that darn "tongue stuff" before the release, its only been 4-5 months now, thx.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

So all you need now is a building called Civic (Mercenaries) and a new Mercenary promotion that adds a gold cost to the unit. No need to give it other bonuses since your already getting the HUGE XP bonus from the civic.

I would not classify 1exp as huge myself.

Can you PLEASE get something in for that darn "tongue stuff" before the release, its only been 4-5 months now, thx.

If I could get to it I would! It is the basis for a number of the WLBO things I want to merge in but people keep wanting me to do other stuff. Nothing will happen with it until after I "fix" the main interface python to a stage where we may be able to have

• nomadic tribes with a screen vaguely similar to the city screen to allow you to control what is happening there
• extra super forts with a screen ditto
• multiple maps including the possibility of a tactical combat map

To get that working I expect to take 3-4 months off after the release to work just on that. Ignoring everything else including the forums so I don't get side tracked.

 

[strategyonly]

• nomadic tribes with a screen vaguely similar to the city screen to allow you to control what is happening there
• extra super forts with a screen ditto
• multiple maps including the possibility of a tactical combat map

To get that working I expect to take 3-4 months off after the release to work just on that. Ignoring everything else including the forums so I don't get side tracked.

OK now your talking.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I would not classify 1exp as huge myself.



If I could get to it I would! It is the basis for a number of the WLBO things I want to merge in but people keep wanting me to do other stuff. Nothing will happen with it until after I "fix" the main interface python to a stage where we may be able to have

• nomadic tribes with a screen vaguely similar to the city screen to allow you to control what is happening there
• extra super forts with a screen ditto
• multiple maps including the possibility of a tactical combat map

To get that working I expect to take 3-4 months off after the release to work just on that. Ignoring everything else including the forums so I don't get side tracked.

Keep us posted at least as I for one will be waiting with baited breath!

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not just the player, AI also!!

My ONE reluctance to develop a Civic free promo tag would be the AI implication. I'd struggle a bit with that as I've found I struggle mightily with any civic tag AIs. (well... last I tried anyhow. Might be a little easier for me now.)

But the structure would be incredibly easy to setup up to the AI point - it's almost already all in place as it would utilize most of the same programming as the Trait based free promos! And the REALLY cool thing would be that by using the same mechanism, the new promotion mechanics would automatically ADD AND REMOVE the free promos on existing units as the civics are adopted and abandoned!

EDIT: Are you implying that one of the big delays we have in the game is that when the nation evaluates civic selections it ALSO has to evaluate all the implications of the free buildings those civics bring in to each of its cities? Good lord that would be heavy! (like 'worth removing free buildings from civics entirely' heavy!)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

EDIT: Are you implying that one of the big delays we have in the game is that when the nation evaluates civic selections it ALSO has to evaluate all the implications of the free buildings those civics bring in to each of its cities? Good lord that would be heavy! (like 'worth removing free buildings from civics entirely' heavy!)

Free civic buildings are not showing up in the pedia either which means you sometimes get a surprise when switching civics. These free buildings are there mostly because the required function was not available on the civics and so was applied with the work around. It would be better all round if the function could be moved to tags on the civics so it becomes easy to see what is really happening and make balancing the civics easier.

 

[Jarolleon]

Steam powered ships cannot get the manoeuvering promotion and thus move slower in the ocean than wooden ships. Upgrading a transport ship from a Galleon to Paddle Steamer to nearly halve its oceanic speed seems somewhat counterintuitive.

 

[Yudishtira]

Where is the discussion that resulted in the Pirate promoline for Wooden Ships being removed? WTH? How can that possibly be a step in the right direction? If they're OP, tone them down - don't remove them.

 

[Yudishtira]

Steam powered ships cannot get the manoeuvering promotion and thus move slower in the ocean than wooden ships. Upgrading a transport ship from a Galleon to Paddle Steamer to nearly halve its oceanic speed seems somewhat counterintuitive.

I agree with you in principle, but I personally have never heard of an oceangoing paddle steamer anyway! I think it's fair for them to struggle... However the true oceangoing steel ships that follow it should not be disadvantaged relative to wooden ones.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Where is the discussion that resulted in the Pirate promoline for Wooden Ships being removed? WTH? How can that possibly be a step in the right direction? If they're OP, tone them down - don't remove them.

ALL of the pink promotions have been removed from the general selectable pool until special access circumstances are given to enable units to get them. An example may be to have a general build a prerequisite building or something along those lines. They were very poorly thought out in terms of balance and implementation at the present time. If you were highly reliant on them there was a reason for that - you could see how valuable they were in comparison to everything else around them.

 

[Yudishtira]

ALL of the pink promotions have been removed from the general selectable pool until special access circumstances are given to enable units to get them. An example may be to have a general build a prerequisite building or something along those lines. They were very poorly thought out in terms of balance and implementation at the present time. If you were highly reliant on them there was a reason for that - you could see how valuable they were in comparison to everything else around them.

With great respect I still think the sledgehammer of removing them from the mod indefinitely is still a big step backwards. Pirate I is not particularly OP anyway, although II & III really are. And which other ones were OP?

I only became reliant on them (Pirate line) when I noticed all the AIs' ships had them and their Sloops of War were a class above my Frigates.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

With great respect I still think the sledgehammer of removing them from the mod indefinitely is still a big step backwards. Pirate I is not particularly OP anyway, although II & III really are. And which other ones were OP?

I only became reliant on them (Pirate line) when I noticed all the AIs' ships had them and their Sloops of War were a class above my Frigates.

All the RI promotions are still there, you just can't get them at the moment. Each set needs to be discussed to see how they fit best in C2C. In RI you needed a GG to open them up and some would only be available to one nation while others were available to each nation.

BtW has anyone seen any art that would do for a Great Admiral? One of the heroes perhaps.

 

[Hydromancerx]

BtW has anyone seen any art that would do for a Great Admiral? One of the heroes perhaps.

I am guessing that since you can get a Great Admiral at any time in the game it should not be a Ship/Boat. Right?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I am guessing that since you can get a Great Admiral at any time in the game it should not be a Ship/Boat. Right?

Indeed but the Great Admiral should upgrade to a Flag Ship of the era that acts like a Great Commander. They would also lead ships like GGs do land units. It is also they that would be able to build special naval buildings and give access to special naval promotions.

They would be produced the same way Great Hunters and Great Generals are now.