C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

But I like his idea in general (unless it crosses too much with your religious evolution DH). Religions (or their institutions) always have some drawbacks apart from political issues. I don't know if other religions have a "church tax" or something but I know that all the old (christian) churches and cathedrals are pretty expensive too keep.
 
Personally I feel that the removal of the resource from the city should only happen when it is your State Religion. So it needs some dll work. :D

However it also means that what happens to those map resource. Should they stop being worked as a pasture for cows for example. What happens instead?
 
I hope this gets filed under....um.....a rock. :p

JosEPh :)
 
Personally I feel that the removal of the resource from the city should only happen when it is your State Religion. So it needs some dll work. :D

However it also means that what happens to those map resource. Should they stop being worked as a pasture for cows for example. What happens instead?

If IRC - RI gave penalties (unhappiness etc) to civs who built improvements on resources that were against the state religion. So pigs in a Jewish state were ignored as long as you did not try to improve the plot. The same applied to other religions.
 
Please don't make C2C religions like RI's, Please! :shake:

JosEPh
 
Please don't make C2C religions like RI's, Please! :shake:

JosEPh

I did not say make them like RI's religions.

Just that in RI you got a penalty if you built an improvement that was not what the state religion wanted. So seafood for example gave a minus benefit to religions that did not want it. But Civs that did not support that religion got the full benefit.

IIRC the religion either cancelled the benefit or gave a slight negative effect. :undecide: Not played RI for a long time.
 
It's coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol that is banned in mormonim. Electronics is perfectly fine, pretty much every mormon has a modern cellphone just like everyone else. Banning or heavy regulation of electronics: TV, computers, social media e.t.c. only applies to mormon missionaries not mormons in general. And mormon missionaries have insanely strict and detailed regulations about pretty much everything. It wouldn't surprise me if there's a rule how many minutes doing number two in the restroom is permissable.
 
Thanks stoferb, learning something new. The only reverence I have is from television.

I do think religion need something bad if there is more then one temple in a city before you can go secular. (or even with secular active) for now its solid way to techhunt ever religion (with exception of Mormon) to get all the happiness and +10% science you ever need and later the 50% culture.


Just a general summary from in game:
* Temples give + happiness if its a state religion, so for hoarding it not very useful.
* Monasteries give 10% science Some culture and some other bonuses (some + hammers, +/-military unit production, reduced maintenance cost etc.) all bonuses that do not need it as a state religion. (this way you could have your city produce 145% more science.)
And if you run church civic, you could net 26 health too from them too.
* Cathedrals. +1 happiness 50% culture +1 happiness from incense. (+2 happiness if state religion) I counted the culture and came to +725%, a flat 14 for happiness and double that if you have incense. :worship:

Civics:
Government
* Theocracy: not really useful or bad for having more then one religion. You have all the holy sites so the stability is kind of nice. but it does need the state religion to function and has no negatives on non state religions.

Power:
* Devine right: The big evil: It gives unhappiness per none state religion.

Religion:
* Irreligion and folklore don't allow any state religion.

* Prophets is nice early on, but only works for state religion.

* Free church and state church are nice ones, the later is unlocked by monotheism and decreases the rebelliousness if you have the holy city of your state religion.

* Same goes for intolerant, (which surprisingly does not give unhappiness per none state religion.) But will block any spread of none state religions.

* Secular disables state religion but gives a flat 1 happiness per religion.

* Atheism is another big evil in this tactic. Giving unhappiness per religion.


Welfare:
* Church can produce 28 health and comes with meditation!! :worship:

Education:
* Religious training. Not really useful for multiple religions, the construction speed for monasteries is nice, and the reduced rebelliousness form having a state religion with a holy city too.

And last but not least, all those buildings (temples monasteries and cathedrals) never go obsolete. Only the wonders do. But if you have all the holy sites you could just update the state religion to something more modern. (national take on the religion shopping :king: )

So go religion hunting and try to catch them all!!! (insert pokemon theme song)
Build all the buildings and hunt for incenses. turn to welfare church and religion to state church and wit for the prophets to spawn to built the holy sites. :worship:
Just make sure you have a holy site of the state religion and spread that to all the cities.

Ps, Just skip (if you like books tobacco and tea) Mormon religion and keep the Jainism buildings from your military city, they kill unit production.
 
I do think religion need something bad if there is more then one temple in a city before you can go secular.

You are making the assumption that the nation is monotheistic what if it is polytheistic and considers the new religion just to be part of the old?

Also, the religions in C2C come from RoM many by AAranda who designed them with the intent that you would change your religion as you progress through the game and as your needs change. Unfortunately this idea was never applied to the ai nations who are stuck with just one religion.
 
Yea that is true.

We need to have more than one state religion!!! :joke:

I noticed that the AI gets his real world/favorite religion as soon as someone founds it although they could not have it tech wise. Isabella from Spain got Christianity while she was still in the ancient era. Would be sad to have no more odd nations religion combos. (like the Shinto Spanish inquisition. )

I still think religion should be nerved. Just a wild idea:

Maybe by setting ALL the bonuses to apply when its a state religion And making all the none state religions cause rebelliousness. (Even more so in holy cities that are not state religions.)
To assimilate a new religion or to make a dominant one more accepted in the empire. one could work on a national religious acceptance plan that makes a second religion as a state religion too. With all the bonuses (and maybe the wonders. I have no idea what to call it so ill keep it as a National Religious Acceptances Plan NRAP. :lol: )
This need religion civics: Prothets or Free church or State church, because the others are on having no state religion (Irreligion, folklore and Atheism) or on just having one (Intolerant). Also it can not be used with divine right. Because if the demi god king came from religion A then why would religion B be tolerated? It could bring doubt on his divinity.
Maybe a 3th feat that this wonder could give is that it can switch the state religion for the accepted one. And be build again to change the accepted religion. (just so players can progress with religion without or little anarchy. and have a more natural progression trou them. :king:
 
Yea that is true.

We need to have more than one state religion!!! :joke:

I noticed that the AI gets his real world/favorite religion as soon as someone founds it although they could not have it tech wise. Isabella from Spain got Christianity while she was still in the ancient era. Would be sad to have no more odd nations religion combos. (like the Shinto Spanish inquisition. )

I still think religion should be nerved. Just a wild idea:

Maybe by setting ALL the bonuses to apply when its a state religion And making all the none state religions cause rebelliousness. (Even more so in holy cities that are not state religions.)
To assimilate a new religion or to make a dominant one more accepted in the empire. one could work on a national religious acceptance plan that makes a second religion as a state religion too. With all the bonuses (and maybe the wonders. I have no idea what to call it so ill keep it as a National Religious Acceptances Plan NRAP. :lol: )
This need religion civics: Prothets or Free church or State church, because the others are on having no state religion (Irreligion, folklore and Atheism) or on just having one (Intolerant). Also it can not be used with divine right. Because if the demi god king came from religion A then why would religion B be tolerated? It could bring doubt on his divinity.
Maybe a 3th feat that this wonder could give is that it can switch the state religion for the accepted one. And be build again to change the accepted religion. (just so players can progress with religion without or little anarchy. and have a more natural progression trou them. :king:

Are you using Divine Prophets Option AND Choose Religions Option at the same time? That should be the Only way Isabela would get Christianity in the Ancient Era.

The Mods religions system is a culmination of over 5+ years of work. And from your posts you're still trying to figure things out and coming up with some rather odd observations. So too is the Civic system and the Civic choices available that pertain to Religions. The current set is the 5th iteration of Civics.

Just sayin' but have you played the Mod much? Are are you relatively new to C2C?

JosEPh :)
 
Joseph:
As he said, all leaders get their favourite religion in their capital for free when it is discovered/founded. So if the Maya found Christianty, they will have the holy city. But leaders like Isabella would have it spread to their capital no matter what - they don't even have to know of each other by then (which I think is odd, but it helps the spread...).


Also, even if it has been around for ages, it doesn't mean that things changes. What worked great a couple of years ago isn't guaranteed to work today as good. From time to time it IS important to review things since there is more stuff added as well.
 
Joseph:
As he said, all leaders get their favourite religion in their capital for free when it is discovered/founded. So if the Maya found Christianty, they will have the holy city. But leaders like Isabella would have it spread to their capital no matter what - they don't even have to know of each other by then (which I think is odd, but it helps the spread...).

More importantly it helps the AI since it has not had its religion ai changed to accept the idea of changing religions as you go so that they get some religious benefit while they strive for thier favorite religion.
 
JosEPh

I have been playing it now for some time, maybe a year or 2... I keep coming back to it!
I cant say that for most other games. Sometimes I get idea on things, but it does not mean I don't respect the time and effort that went in to it. I have to respect you guys for the simple fact I cant code/mod (or spell for that matter). But I do have ideas so...hoping to inspire some one can, is the best I can hope for. :lol:
 
I have to respect you guys for the simple fact I cant code/mod (or spell for that matter). But I do have ideas so...hoping to inspire some one can, is the best I can hope for. :lol:

Well...luckily, editing the XML is very VERY simple! If you want to learn how to give cathedrals +10% :culture: instead of 50% :culture:, or :health: and :) adjustments - that really just requires basic reading and writing of words/text and maybe 30-60min to get a hang on the structure of "tags" and where to find them. If you want to change effects so they only apply if a religion is a state religion then it is a bit more complicated. However, since it's nothing NEW, it shouldn't be too complicated and can be most certainly done by copy and paste with minimal understanding of the code itself. If you ask politely I'm sure everybody here will be happy to point you to the correct folders and parts of the code and help you getting a hang on it. Just don't be afraid!

It is always good if thinker can test their ideas by them self as it saves time (for us :D ) and if something already proves to work fine ingame it is more likely to be incorporated in the mod then just loose ideas.
 
Joseph:
As he said, all leaders get their favourite religion in their capital for free when it is discovered/founded. So if the Maya found Christianty, they will have the holy city. But leaders like Isabella would have it spread to their capital no matter what - they don't even have to know of each other by then (which I think is odd, but it helps the spread...).


Also, even if it has been around for ages, it doesn't mean that things changes. What worked great a couple of years ago isn't guaranteed to work today as good. From time to time it IS important to review things since there is more stuff added as well.

If you do not use any of the Leader Trait or Developing Leader Options then I don't believe this is true. BUT even if I'm wrong on that it's not important enough to try to change the religion workings. It's the Founding of the Religion that is Most important.

There are many players who don't like using Multiple religion Spread Option in the BUG menu but I'm not one of them. I want religions spreading in my game as Religious Victory is one of the 3-4 Victory Conditions I will use. So when someone comes in and wants to start changing how religions work and spread I'll interact. The Religion portion of the Mod is one of the Better functioning parts of the Mod, impo.

The point about how long it's been developing is that it's Not just an "old/been around for ages" thing, it's that 5+ years have been spent making it work and work well.

Throwing ideas about to see if something sticks has it's place. But you don't go tearing down a working engine because you Thought you heard a knock. Or this Religion doesn't do the same thing as that one.

And there comes a time that portions of the Mod Must have stability and a solid setting to help with setting the rest of the mod into working order. And that means that sometimes what some think are good changes are really just "changes for changes sake" and are Not good for the Mod at all. The Mod has needed stability for years so that it's functioning is smooth and seamless, a reasonably finished product. The Need for Constant Change can come in the way of Options or Mod mods.

Ill ask this, Is it the goal of the mod to be in a constant state of change? Too never have a goal accomplished? Is that what attracts you to the mod?

JosEPh
 
Does not Multiple Religion Spread take away from being able to win a Religious Victory as that requires your Holy City owned religion to spread over x% of the worlds population?

Having 10 religions in each city worldwide will have each of those religions only have 10% of the worlds population.
To win Religiously you would need to Inquisition a of of cities to leave only your own religion in them, and to do taht with foreign nations you also need to have them convert to your religion.

As far as I am concerned the Religious Victory has been broken a long time due to the complexity of the religious system, which I would rather have than the current Religious Victory. I can see how changing it might be needed too, maybe counting populace having it as State Religion get more % and not split by all religions in a city (so a city with 10 religions does not get 10% for each but 25-100% population counting towards the nations State Religion and the rest divided by what other religions are there depending on Religion Civic. Free religion would still split all, Theocracy would not split at all, for instance.

Cheers
 
Faustmouse, Ill give it a try. Do you have any good sites on where to start with moding civ 4?

Joseph, I'm sorry if my posts have upset you, that is not my intention. Just waned to share my thoughts, I am not demanding any change in the mod. but I do think some elements on the religions could use some tweaks. And I agree that not every chance leads to something better. But I do believe that its never wrong to question something respectfully.

And this is the "Religions discussions and ideas" tread, not?

And to answer: "Ill ask this, Is it the goal of the mod to be in a constant state of change? Too never have a goal accomplished? Is that what attracts you to the mod?"

In general mods attracts me due to the fact they offer a brand new world to learn and master. Stability is a nice bonus but instability never kept me away from mods. And considering mods to be an kind of art form i'll refer to a quote from Leonardo da Vinci: "Art is never finished, only abandoned."
 
Hmm, Hydro posted me a building tutorial once that I can't find anymore... :(


If you want a quick guide:
Open your C2C folder, then Assets -> Modules -> Costum_Religions -> Andean.

If you want to adjust buildings, look for the XXX_CIV4BuildingInfos; not the BuildingClassInfos. This file contains more or less all pieces of a building (and many more unused as well. If you see this structure:

<BuildingInfos>

it is a "tag". The < and > indicate start and end of the tagname. If you forgot one of them then the whole module won't load :crazyeye:

Tags go open <XXX> then there is something in there yyy and then they close again </XXX>. (they can also be empty or closed tags <XXX/>):

Code:
<XXX>yyy</XXX>

the yyy can be a number or a word, depending on the type of the tag. A (almost) full list of tags for buildings and other things can be found here:
http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4BuildingInfos

It sounds more complicated then it is (or I suck at explaining things :mischief:) so for example:

Code:
<iHappiness>1</iHappiness>

We see the tag "iHappiness". The i indicates that it is an integer, so yyy would be a number. Indeed, we find a number in between. The modiki page tells us that this tag changes happiness in your city. So if we put a 1 here, it means if you build this building, it has the +1:). If we put 0 in or leave it empty, nothing happens. If we put in a negative like -2, your city gets +2:mad: from it.

"b", for example "bRiver" indicates it is a boolean: 0 means no and 1 means yes.

If you want to edit yields :)food: :hammers: :commerce:) or commerces :)science: :gold: :culture: :espionage) it is a bit "tricky". You will see this:


Code:
			<CommerceChanges>
				<iCommerce>0</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>2</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>3</iCommerce>
				<iCommerce>4</iCommerce>
			</CommerceChanges>

We have 4 identical tags iCommerce here. The first changes :gold:, the second :science: the 3rd :culture: and the last :espionage:.

Yields are the same; the order is :food: :hammers: :commerce:. Best you write it down somewhere, I can never remember which is which and had to check some buildings to see it...)

Note that there is a difference between CommerceChanges and CommerceModifier: The first gives flat values (+25, -19 etc...) while the latter gives percentages (+1%; -27%...)

It's probably a good idea to just play around with these, save the file (make a safety copy before that :D) and look it up ingame.

Other religious buildings (the basic ones) can be found in Assets -> XML -> Buildings -> BuildingInfos. And you find civics main files in the XML -> Gameinfo.

Civics are basically the same; but here you find a more modular system where only parts of the civics code is in a folder. Open the Andean_CIV4CivicInfos file. You find this:

Code:
		<CivicInfo>
			<CivicOptionType>CIVICOPTION_RELIGION</CivicOptionType>
			<Type>CIVIC_STATE_CHURCH</Type>
			<BuildingCommerceModifiers>
				<BuildingCommerceModifier>
					<BuildingType>BUILDING_ANDEAN_SHRINE</BuildingType>
					<CommerceModifiers>
						<iCommerce>25</iCommerce>  
						<iCommerce>0</iCommerce> 
						<iCommerce>25</iCommerce>  
					</CommerceModifiers>
				</BuildingCommerceModifier>
			</BuildingCommerceModifiers>
		</CivicInfo>
You can probably already guess what it does. If not, try it before reading further.

CivicInfo tells the game: Here starts a new piece of code for a civic.
CivicOptionType: In which category belongs the civic?
Type: One specific civic.
BuildingCommerceModifier: A tag that will Modify (percentage!) a commerce value :)gold: :science: :culture: :espionage:) on a Building.
BuildingType: What building?
CommerceModifiers: opens a list of different commerces available.
iCommerce: We had this one already. It does the same here.

So what it does is: If you have the religion civic "State Church" active, then your Andean Shrine will give 25% more :gold: (1st) and 25% more :culture: (3rd). Note that it only has 3 iCommerces. If you see that it sets the forth to 0. If you have only one iCommerce then this is always :gold: and the rest is 0.

Sadly, over the years names changed and it's exhausting changing all tags as well. You will find tags that are not used in game under that name, but a different one. The only thing that helps is look on what they do and compare them to ingame buildings/civics etc. Or ask in the Forums.

Once you adjusted what you wanna do, save it and see if it works in game. Only thing you need is notepad or editor or something to edit it.


I hope I didn't confuse you too much :/ If you have any questions, no matter if you think it's a dump one, just ask (probably better via PM). I most certainly asked the same questions when I first try to do things here ;)
 
The religions in the mod are alot of fun already. The problem really is how easy it is to hoard religions and stack their bonuses on top of each other and thus unbalancing the game beyond repair. And again with Rev, it doesn't matter, the stacked bonuses from religious buildings, units and wonders are way more powerful than the penalties coming with having multiple religions. And instead I can gift missionaries to the AI that will unstabilize them much more than it does for me. And that is the main thing to adress unless new features for modelling religion is in the cards.
 
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