An explanation as to what needs fixing may be useful. If from a previous post please quote it.
C2C - Religions discussions and ideas
- Thread starter Dancing Hoskuld
- Start date
An explanation as to what needs fixing may be useful. If from a previous post please quote it.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I have done a number of fixes but the person who was working with me stopped part the way through.
Septentrion
Warlord
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The buildings have a detrimental ban. On of them banned books in the past, which was a clear mistake. I don't think any of the city wide bans were intentional. The tea ban is ban obsolete AFAIK because Mormons mostly adhere to modern concepts of health. A lazy solution would to be to replace the resources with hard drugs. I like the idea of a giant pink cathedral purging the drug dealers.
Actual, I'm considering working on mormonism.
Last edited:
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... the actual prohibition among the Mormon faith is against Hot Drinks. This means tea and coffee and hot chocolate, but does not mean caffeine, which is why the Coca-Cola company is largely owned by Mormons. It has nothing to do with health - just that it is served hot. The texts do not try to justify the edict further than that. Many practitioners of the faith tend to either write off the edict or rationalize it AS a health based instruction and re-interpret it for themselves to mean one thing or another but literally... it's just that irrational. Hot Drink.
Septentrion
Warlord
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The point is that it's not widely practice, and consuming only healthy substances is one of the foundation commandments in Mormonism(call the Word of Wisdom). The Book of Mormon isn't typically considered the last word. The verse on hot drink isn't even agreed upon in it's meaning of hot drink, which may refer to a specific tea plant.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
That prohibitions affect the entire city rather than a portion of the city is part of what makes it a little tough to work with Mormonism as a religion. However, there are game engine limitations. Mormonism, if I'm not mistaken, was given some powerful unusually strong benefits for a religion to compensate.
Septentrion
Warlord
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Islam doesn't have any such prohibition of pork in C2C. Even if they did, then the logic wouldn't work for Mormonism because so many mormons don't practice the Hot Drink thing and the church doesn't do anything about the numerous tea drinking bishops.
There is nothing like that in the game. Module?
I just noticed: "Morman" Shrine?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
You make a good point that many other religions also have bans that should be as or more reflected. Hinduism with cows for example. And as an argument it makes sense that removing the penalty/penalties would make some sense. I think I argued that myself a while back.
With the Ideas project, I plan ways to make it so that these kinds of things such as religious prohibitions, to be more accurately represented.
Exactly... it's the benefit per city in the Shrine that makes Mormonism pretty awesome.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
It never ever did this. It always used books, it never baned them, ever!
Septentrion
Warlord
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Wow, even if I was 100% wrong, there's no need to be so defensive.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I was having a very bad day. Sorry.
There is an improved Mormon religion in the Unloaded_Mods folder but it is still not working as Chamber wanted it as he (or she) has moved on and not really explained all that they wanted to do.
One thing that I liked was the proposal for Elders (missionary units)
The reason I like this idea over multi use missionaries is because being a missionary is a vocation not a job and this is better reflected with these changes.
There is an improved Mormon religion in the Unloaded_Mods folder but it is still not working as Chamber wanted it as he (or she) has moved on and not really explained all that they wanted to do.
One thing that I liked was the proposal for Elders (missionary units)
- a nation can't build them only inspire them.
Basically a city may give a free missionary in a given turn based on the buildings you have in it. Another person suggested this for the early religions and wrote the code to. We had it working but it was disliked.
- if an Elder successfully spreads Mormon to a city they may return home as a Returned Elder. This unit can do one of the following
- inspire 1-5 new Elders
- build a special building increasing the chance of inspiring new Elders in the future
- improve the culture of the city (culture bomb like Great Artist and Entertainment unit line do)
- form a basic combat unit of the era at no cost to the nation eg rifleman
The reason I like this idea over multi use missionaries is because being a missionary is a vocation not a job and this is better reflected with these changes.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I like a lot of that too DH. IMO, in a best case future, Missionaries are not one shot units but work like LE or Healers to add a persistent source of Idea influence where stationed - and different buildups for different potential ways they can help the city could be cool with that.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
This still makes a missionary a one shot thing. It is just that they sometimes return home as another type of unit which is also one shot.
Of course it would work a whole lot better in mods where missionaries were strategic not tactical as they are now.
Septentrion
Warlord
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I have some gameplay related ideas for the mormon religion. It's power would be to expand into wilderness, much like the actual religion did. The distribution of mormons today still reflect that history. I previously mention an idea of Mormon Pioneers that founds Mormon cities, there could also be mormon immigants. Mormons missionaries can be sent to rather inhospitable places.
I don't think dozens of minor gold calculations should represent eating habits.
, 
, and 
from ice cream is more appropriate for a game. The dietary requirements of the Word of Wisdom have given a larger life expectancy through avoidable cause of death, although Mormons have not avoided obesity as a group so it wouldn't be overpowered levels of 
. As Word of Wisdom(law) for state religion might be implement to ban coffee.
This seem very odd because New York state has a very low concentration of Mormons, despite that being where the religion was founded. Mormons don't have a holy city, but I think the previously LDS Conference Center in Salt Lake City fits the qualification of a shrine quite easily. Twice a year, Mormons have General Conference, which is broadcasted on Sunday as the replacement for church for those weeks. It could be the main shrine that CANNOT be built where the religion was founded. Two shrines are okay if the benefits are split enough, right?
I don't think dozens of minor gold calculations should represent eating habits.
, , and from ice cream is more appropriate for a game. The dietary requirements of the Word of Wisdom have given a larger life expectancy through avoidable cause of death, although Mormons have not avoided obesity as a group so it wouldn't be overpowered levels of . As Word of Wisdom(law) for state religion might be implement to ban coffee.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well, most of our religions have an extra wonder. Shrines and the tags they utilize follow stock coding rules that enforce that it's where the religion was founded. If you get too zoomed in on any religion, take Islam for example, there are multiple holy cities for different reasons, founding not always being the cause. (Almost rarely actually)
I have to wonder if overfocusing on any religion developments may impede DH too much on some of his plans to reshape the concept of religions as a whole.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
It is possible to have many extra wonders and you can make them act like shrines do for the other religions because it is just XML.I have some gameplay related ideas for the mormon religion. It's power would be to expand into wilderness, much like the actual religion did. The distribution of mormons today still reflect that history. I previously mention an idea of Mormon Pioneers that founds Mormon cities, there could also be mormon immigants. Mormons missionaries can be sent to rather inhospitable places.
This seem very odd because New York state has a very low concentration of Mormons, despite that being where the religion was founded. Mormons don't have a holy city, but I think the previously LDS Conference Center in Salt Lake City fits the qualification of a shrine quite easily. Twice a year, Mormons have General Conference, which is broadcasted on Sunday as the replacement for church for those weeks. It could be the main shrine that CANNOT be built where the religion was founded. Two shrines are okay if the benefits are split enough, right?
I don't think dozens of minor gold calculations should represent eating habits.
Have you looked at the stuff in Modules/My_Mods (unloaded)/Mormon New? This contains almost everything Camber wanted with the problem areas commented out.
Septentrion
Warlord
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There's a world wonder which acts as a second shrine to your state religion, unless I'm remember wrong. Making a second shrine should be a matter of knowing which XML file to look in.
Loading the module, the Mormon Shrine, as well as the religion itself, is rather underwhelming compare to earlier religions. I see obvious errors as well.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Shrines are just buildings
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
With special rules. Defining them as a shrine means they can be made by prophets in the holy city. Also means they can use a special tag for commerce per city with their religion.
Praetyre
King
Sorry if this is necro, but I wanted to share some of my own ideas for religion here:
In the spirit of the NiGHTS mod for Civ V (which sadly doesn't really seem to have gotten its ideas about religion off the ground due to lack of SDK), Sevo's Faces of God, some of johny_smith's ideas and Civilization V: Gods and Kings, I was thinking the way religions work needs an overhaul.
The vanilla Civ IV model for religion, which C2C and its ancestor mods still largely hold to, is that of a exclusive creed with an organized religious hierarchy and system of structures, including a central shrine. Followers of different faiths not only do not adhere to more than one faith in whole or in part, but are by default (AI wise) hostile to those not part of their faith.
This is a model of religion that could be called Platonic exclusivism, and is both dependent upon the emphasis of orthodoxy (right belief, as opposed to orthopraxy, right action) traditionally found in, say, high church Christianity and some schools of Buddhism, and upon a rejection by that religion's core tenets of any form of syncretism.
The reality of religion for much of human history, if I understand it correctly, is that religion is less of a matter of formal belief and adherence to a defined set of abstract doctrines than it is an expression of solidarity and loyalty to one's in-group (in the sociological sense) and community. What one believes about, say, Zeus, is largely irrelevant: what one does about that belief is a very different matter.
Furthermore, many (though contrary to some claims by neopagans, not all) polytheistic or "pagan" religions (I tend to define paganism as a polytheistic faith particular to a nation or people. Amusingly, Judaism qualifies in every respect except not being polytheistic (though one might add Judaism's status as a revealed religion to its list of disqualifiers) have, in various times and places, coexisted with and even incorporated elements of other faiths into their own belief systems. The Greeks of Classical Antiquity considered Osiris to be the same deity as Persephone, albeit in another form. Religious conflict along ideological (as opposed to political or territorial, ala Druids vs Romans) lines is a product of, at earliest, Late Antiquity, if not the Postclassical Era, of a society that has not only opened its eyes to the contemplative life of the Axial Age, but has absorbed those ideas and either reified them into a worldview of right-action (as in, say, Socrates and his countless intellectual descendants) or taken them to be the commandments of a deity or deities (Judaism's universal ethic being one but far from the only example of this)
I actually think, in light of this, that there was some merit in vanilla Civ setting paganism as a religious civic rather than a faith in its own right. But, of course, we here at C2C need not stop at a system that simple.
I propose that the following religions:
Be removed from the game in their current state. This would, of course, almost certainly break savegame compatibility (and make massive changes to games even if it did not), so keep in mind I am not proposing this as an immediate as-of-this-moment-in-C2C's-development-cycle change.
Instead, these and other polytheistic religions should work in a manner akin to Civilization V's Policies, except with Faith (a new commerce, represented by
) driving growth instead of culture.
Basically, you start out with Pre-Animism, the religion man is speculated to have followed before he first conceived of the idea of spirits. In this stage of man's spirituality, is gained by two things: natural features (be it forests, unusual features such as caves or even natural wonders) and animals, be it Myths or as a byproduct of encounters with animals. Once a sufficient number of has been gathered, one can then choose to specialize in either Fear or Admiration. The former gives greater from dangerous animals (a category which should be particularly easy to demarcate with the new combat classes and NPC split) and features, such as sabre toothed tigers and volcanoes, at the price of reduced from peaceful animals and features, such as gazelles or waterfalls. Admiration does the opposite, as one might expect.
Once one has a sufficient number of and has researched the requirements for what is now the Ritualism tech, a new branch of Pre-Animism is unlocked. Rituals essentially are "technologies" unlocking certain buildings and promotions (some of which, for example, give units more as a result of battle), representing the ritualistic behaviour characteristic of humans in the Upper Paleolithic.
Eventually, a threshold is reached. Provided the player has enough, and has researched the requirements for what is currently the Animism tech, the next "era" of the religion tech tree can be unlocked, Animism. In this "era", can go towards things such as Solar Worship, Lunar Worship, Sky Worship, Air Worship, Plant Worship, Animal Worship, each with their own levels and branches. The player still retains the benefits and unlocked parts of Pre-Animism, and can continue to unlock new options in that part of the "tree" with .
The player can at this point opt to build mutually exclusive "buildings", along the lines of "Cult of the Moon" or "Cult of the Sea". For a considerable amount of, the first genesis of an organized , Shamanism, can be unlocked. This unlocks not only buildings such as the Shaman's Hut, but units, which function in a manner akin to Entertainers (they can expend themselves to -bomb (note that levels in a city work a bit like Culture in as much as you need a certain number to build buildings or units of a certain "tier' of ) or passively increase by themselves, a useful supplement around the time of Tribalism's expansion into the great unknown. Great Prophets can do the same, only to a much greater degree, and there would be specialists as well.
Human Sacrifice would play into the system as well, with "tree" options to unlock it and utilize it for various purposes, with differing options on who gets sacrificed (prisoners of war vs the infirm vs commoners vs children of the nobility, for example, each with their own plusses and minuses). You could also (with the right tech requirements, of course) unlock promotions that boost units performance (religious fervor), including promotions given byunits to other units on the tile (the shaman urging on the tribes warriors).
Other religious techs (such as Mysticism or Ancestor Worship) would be transferred into this "Faith tree" system, and of course those (and many other) buildings would play a role in the generation of.
Eventually, with enough gathered and enough "techs" researched, one can unlock the next stage of religion, Polytheism. This would follow similar lines as before, and still allow one to reap the benefits (and even upgrade the benefits in new ways) of Pre-Animism and Animism, but with a stronger focus on the personality and provenance of deities and an organized priesthood.
Buildings formerly associated with removed faiths now become unlockable through certain Faith "techs", though many of them will have different requirements on top of that (you need a Cult of the Ruler of the Gods as well as Temple to the Ruler of the Gods in at least n (variable by map size and the other usual variables) to build the Statue of Zeus, for example).
Now, however, comes a time of forking roads. One can continue practicing Polytheism, worshipping the numerous gods (even if at least nominally subordinate to a Top God) and continue developing your faith throughout the ages. You can even add elements of monotheism into the mix, such as Father Tengri or Brahman.
Or, you can unlock a formal religion along the lines of vanilla Civ, one which locks out not only your ability to further develop your prior faith, but negates the benefits of prior investment in the Faith tree. This radical change requires not just ordinary men, but a Great Prophet.
There would be opportunities for splits and further developments, however, in the form of heresies and sects. Here I envision a kind of Crusader Kings II-type system, with the opportunity for the heresy to become the orthodoxy and the orthodoxy to become a minority heresy. There'd also be other opportunities for development of doctrine, such as Caesaropapism vs Ultramontanism (or somewhere in between), or ecumenism (be it within the religion our outside it), or pacifism vs militarism. Some of these questions would be unique to particular religions, giving each religions its own flair and making the choice between different religions more than cosmetic (keep in mind those religions would keep their associated buildings, too).
Anyway, this is just my barely-formed ideas on the sort of direction C2C could take with religion, and I don't doubt it could be significantly improved upon or even replaced altogether by someone with more experience and knowledge than me.
I have one other suggestion, which I'll spoiler so as to keep this already lengthy post from dragging out the scroll the bottom:
In the spirit of the NiGHTS mod for Civ V (which sadly doesn't really seem to have gotten its ideas about religion off the ground due to lack of SDK), Sevo's Faces of God, some of johny_smith's ideas and Civilization V: Gods and Kings, I was thinking the way religions work needs an overhaul.
The vanilla Civ IV model for religion, which C2C and its ancestor mods still largely hold to, is that of a exclusive creed with an organized religious hierarchy and system of structures, including a central shrine. Followers of different faiths not only do not adhere to more than one faith in whole or in part, but are by default (AI wise) hostile to those not part of their faith.
This is a model of religion that could be called Platonic exclusivism, and is both dependent upon the emphasis of orthodoxy (right belief, as opposed to orthopraxy, right action) traditionally found in, say, high church Christianity and some schools of Buddhism, and upon a rejection by that religion's core tenets of any form of syncretism.
The reality of religion for much of human history, if I understand it correctly, is that religion is less of a matter of formal belief and adherence to a defined set of abstract doctrines than it is an expression of solidarity and loyalty to one's in-group (in the sociological sense) and community. What one believes about, say, Zeus, is largely irrelevant: what one does about that belief is a very different matter.
Furthermore, many (though contrary to some claims by neopagans, not all) polytheistic or "pagan" religions (I tend to define paganism as a polytheistic faith particular to a nation or people. Amusingly, Judaism qualifies in every respect except not being polytheistic (though one might add Judaism's status as a revealed religion to its list of disqualifiers) have, in various times and places, coexisted with and even incorporated elements of other faiths into their own belief systems. The Greeks of Classical Antiquity considered Osiris to be the same deity as Persephone, albeit in another form. Religious conflict along ideological (as opposed to political or territorial, ala Druids vs Romans) lines is a product of, at earliest, Late Antiquity, if not the Postclassical Era, of a society that has not only opened its eyes to the contemplative life of the Axial Age, but has absorbed those ideas and either reified them into a worldview of right-action (as in, say, Socrates and his countless intellectual descendants) or taken them to be the commandments of a deity or deities (Judaism's universal ethic being one but far from the only example of this)
I actually think, in light of this, that there was some merit in vanilla Civ setting paganism as a religious civic rather than a faith in its own right. But, of course, we here at C2C need not stop at a system that simple.
I propose that the following religions:
Spoiler :
Be removed from the game in their current state. This would, of course, almost certainly break savegame compatibility (and make massive changes to games even if it did not), so keep in mind I am not proposing this as an immediate as-of-this-moment-in-C2C's-development-cycle change.
Instead, these and other polytheistic religions should work in a manner akin to Civilization V's Policies, except with Faith (a new commerce, represented by
) driving growth instead of culture.Basically, you start out with Pre-Animism, the religion man is speculated to have followed before he first conceived of the idea of spirits. In this stage of man's spirituality,
is gained by two things: natural features (be it forests, unusual features such as caves or even natural wonders) and animals, be it Myths or as a byproduct of encounters with animals. Once a sufficient number of has been gathered, one can then choose to specialize in either Fear or Admiration. The former gives greater from dangerous animals (a category which should be particularly easy to demarcate with the new combat classes and NPC split) and features, such as sabre toothed tigers and volcanoes, at the price of reduced from peaceful animals and features, such as gazelles or waterfalls. Admiration does the opposite, as one might expect.Once one has a sufficient number of
and has researched the requirements for what is now the Ritualism tech, a new branch of Pre-Animism is unlocked. Rituals essentially are "technologies" unlocking certain buildings and promotions (some of which, for example, give units more as a result of battle), representing the ritualistic behaviour characteristic of humans in the Upper Paleolithic.Eventually, a threshold is reached. Provided the player has enough
, and has researched the requirements for what is currently the Animism tech, the next "era" of the religion tech tree can be unlocked, Animism. In this "era", can go towards things such as Solar Worship, Lunar Worship, Sky Worship, Air Worship, Plant Worship, Animal Worship, each with their own levels and branches. The player still retains the benefits and unlocked parts of Pre-Animism, and can continue to unlock new options in that part of the "tree" with .The player can at this point opt to build mutually exclusive "buildings", along the lines of "Cult of the Moon" or "Cult of the Sea". For a considerable amount of
, the first genesis of an organized , Shamanism, can be unlocked. This unlocks not only buildings such as the Shaman's Hut, but units, which function in a manner akin to Entertainers (they can expend themselves to -bomb (note that levels in a city work a bit like Culture in as much as you need a certain number to build buildings or units of a certain "tier' of ) or passively increase by themselves, a useful supplement around the time of Tribalism's expansion into the great unknown. Great Prophets can do the same, only to a much greater degree, and there would be specialists as well.Human Sacrifice would play into the system as well, with "tree" options to unlock it and utilize it for various purposes, with differing options on who gets sacrificed (prisoners of war vs the infirm vs commoners vs children of the nobility, for example, each with their own plusses and minuses). You could also (with the right tech requirements, of course) unlock promotions that boost units performance (religious fervor), including promotions given by
units to other units on the tile (the shaman urging on the tribes warriors).Other religious techs (such as Mysticism or Ancestor Worship) would be transferred into this "Faith tree" system, and of course those (and many other) buildings would play a role in the generation of
.Eventually, with enough
gathered and enough "techs" researched, one can unlock the next stage of religion, Polytheism. This would follow similar lines as before, and still allow one to reap the benefits (and even upgrade the benefits in new ways) of Pre-Animism and Animism, but with a stronger focus on the personality and provenance of deities and an organized priesthood.Buildings formerly associated with removed faiths now become unlockable through certain Faith "techs", though many of them will have different requirements on top of that (you need a Cult of the Ruler of the Gods as well as Temple to the Ruler of the Gods in at least n (variable by map size and the other usual variables) to build the Statue of Zeus, for example).
Now, however, comes a time of forking roads. One can continue practicing Polytheism, worshipping the numerous gods (even if at least nominally subordinate to a Top God) and continue developing your faith throughout the ages. You can even add elements of monotheism into the mix, such as Father Tengri or Brahman.
Or, you can unlock a formal religion along the lines of vanilla Civ, one which locks out not only your ability to further develop your prior faith, but negates the benefits of prior investment in the Faith tree. This radical change requires not just ordinary men, but a Great Prophet.
There would be opportunities for splits and further developments, however, in the form of heresies and sects. Here I envision a kind of Crusader Kings II-type system, with the opportunity for the heresy to become the orthodoxy and the orthodoxy to become a minority heresy. There'd also be other opportunities for development of doctrine, such as Caesaropapism vs Ultramontanism (or somewhere in between), or ecumenism (be it within the religion our outside it), or pacifism vs militarism. Some of these questions would be unique to particular religions, giving each religions its own flair and making the choice between different religions more than cosmetic (keep in mind those religions would keep their associated buildings, too).
Anyway, this is just my barely-formed ideas on the sort of direction C2C could take with religion, and I don't doubt it could be significantly improved upon or even replaced altogether by someone with more experience and knowledge than me.
I have one other suggestion, which I'll spoiler so as to keep this already lengthy post from dragging out the scroll the bottom:
Spoiler :
