C2C - Transhuman Era

I have a massive objection to it being the same tech. They AREN'T developed at the same time! Despite already having developed successful animal cloning, Human cloning will still take a hell of a lot of biotech improvements to develop from where we are today and since research on it has been outlawed internationally its going to take some brave (or well funded and well hidden) souls indeed to pierce the ideological boundary that prohibits it.
 
I looked over Thunderbrd's comments. And besides the stuff I aready said I would like to add the following comments.

Merge Origin Sociology into Advanced Sociological Theories

1. I think it should have a better name. Like something Sociology. I hate to use "Advanced Sociology" but something along those lines.

Merge Digitized Fabrics and Miniturized Electronics into Ubiquitous Computing
(Ubiquitous Computing? The name itself is frustrating... The merge doesn't bother me though

2. I have to agree it could use a better name or even split into 2 techs such as ...

Mircorobotics = Bugbots and Miniturized Electronics

Smart Goods = Digitized Fabrics, Smart Cars, etc.

Something that combines the application of computers to everyday items like clothes, appliances, toys, vehicles, phones, etc.

Delete Dream Forensics (what??)
(Oh, common, now this sounds cool! The ability to enter and observe people's dreams? Sounds like something coming after Binary Neurochemistry, an application of the ability to figure out the plug in between brain activity and computers. Sounds pretty legitimate but also sounds like it'd be a part of something much larger. Simply unlocking the ability to record and replay dreams (and any other experience for that matter) would be a tech of its own right with enormous implications. Ever seen Strange Days ? (GREAT movie btw))

3. Ok that tech does sound cool. I think we should keep it since we do not have any other dream related technologies. We could always re-name it like "Dream Manipulation" so one could not only view dreams but share, engineer or even record dreams.
 
3. Ok that tech does sound cool. I think we should keep it since we do not have any other dream related technologies. We could always re-name it like "Dream Manipulation" so one could not only view dreams but share, engineer or even record dreams.

I think the whole psycho subconscious area of techs needs to be deleted and remade (wait it's just that one tech? Even easier!:lol:)

Mental Tweaking (allows an implant to release an electric frequency that forces the brain to change its mood - already exists)

Conscious recording (there's an underfunded prototype that lets you see rough shapes of images in people's imaginations - go early in Transhuman I'd imagine).

Psycho-analysis - allows one to peer into a being's predetermined reactions to anything under any circumstance.

Subconscious Interfacing - allows one to speak with a being in a less-than-conscious state via interfacing computer.

Forcive Conscious - allows a machine to cause a beings' mind to race just to read the thoughts that come out. Causes patient to become extremely agitated and tired.

Inception - Allows a computer to manipulate one's thoughts and dreams through subconscious suggestion. Allows for sleeper agents. And a suicide toll. Just for the movie.:D

Neural Pathfinders - Allows a computer to pinpoint which brain cells contain which conscious thoughts.

Subconscious Forensics - Allows a computer to search memories that are not currently in the thought process of a being and allows memories to be viewed from deceased victims of brains that are not fully dead.

Neural Networking - Allows nanobots to physically rewire a patient's brain to learn certain things faster.

Neural Imprinting - Allows a computer to imprint fake or another person's memories into a patient's head. Allows for instant learning (think The Matrix).

Synthetic Amnesia - Allows for memories to be targeted and blocked from the patient's thought process.

Conscious Resurrection - allows computers to bring a patient back from the dead without the use of 'barbaric' shocking of the body. This mixed with Subconscious Forensics, Neural Networking, Neural Imprinting and fleshbag clones, you can have EVE type clones!


Oh, and one unrelated from the above

Animated Puppetry - allows for bots to control muscles and animate any body - living or dead. (Zombies ftw!)
 
I have a massive objection to it being the same tech. They AREN'T developed at the same time! Despite already having developed successful animal cloning, Human cloning will still take a hell of a lot of biotech improvements to develop from where we are today and since research on it has been outlawed internationally its going to take some brave (or well funded and well hidden) souls indeed to pierce the ideological boundary that prohibits it.

I don't think cloning of animals is really successful yet. To me, the Cloning tech represents cloning on a wide-scale, commercially available basis, like the level that would support the RePet building. We're not there yet. I think what we're looking at now is the beakers are still being accumulated (despite the project).

We can cover the ethical issues of human cloning either with aspects of other technologies -- I think we have discussed Gene Jurisprudence before -- or we can have a separate Human Cloning technology. I don't have an issue with that. The problem I have is sticking unnecessary adjectives on technology names simply to cover every possible objection (I still cringe when I look at Commercial Whaling). I think Cloning works perfectly well for the baseline science, and then having Human Cloning be named differently. You don't need to add the word Animal on top of that. For example, we have Rocketry and Advanced Rocketry -- not Basic Rocketry and Advanced Rocketry.
 
I don't think cloning of animals is really successful yet. To me, the Cloning tech represents cloning on a wide-scale, commercially available basis, like the level that would support the RePet building. We're not there yet. I think what we're looking at now is the beakers are still being accumulated (despite the project).
Then should we make the "First Cloned Mammal" project appear with an earlier tech? Dolly was cloned back in the 90's, and cloning is a Transhuman tech.
 
Great discussion, this is the way to do the future eras right, with the input of everyone.

Here are the main points I'm hearing about my future setup.

1. Making generic tech names, especially those involving 'advanced'. I'm fine with renaming those if people can come up with more evocative names, but I want to leave them as is, there are going to be a LOT of tech in the TH era (over 100) even with all of the mergers that I did. On Ubiquitous computing specifically, I did not make that term up, it was originally coined in the '90s to describe a point in the future where microchips would be so cheap that they could be put into everything (a point we are fast approaching today).

2. Vokarya, I'm fine with leaving it as Cloning, but then we need to have a civic that enables Human cloning (and the Clone units). I'll leave that to CIVPlayer, as he has sort of become the civics guy.

3. I cut Emotion Transistors and the Dream stuff, as well as some Binary things, becuase I frankly had little idea what they did, and they sounded too fantastical to me. If someone could explain in scientific terms what those things are supposed to be (with no references to Inception, god I hated that movie:blush:) I'll consider reinstating them, most likely under a different name.

Kudos to Thunderbrd for going through all of these, that really helped me out. I'll post the ideas I sent to MrAzure for the last third or so of the TH era later today, it's only about ten new techs. Also, I would like to add X79 (with Machine Learning, Cyberwarfare, Biomaterials, et al) to the Modern Era, as these concepts are now a reality (which they weren't back in the ROM days).
 
I don't think cloning of animals is really successful yet. To me, the Cloning tech represents cloning on a wide-scale, commercially available basis, like the level that would support the RePet building. We're not there yet. I think what we're looking at now is the beakers are still being accumulated (despite the project).

We can cover the ethical issues of human cloning either with aspects of other technologies -- I think we have discussed Gene Jurisprudence before -- or we can have a separate Human Cloning technology. I don't have an issue with that. The problem I have is sticking unnecessary adjectives on technology names simply to cover every possible objection (I still cringe when I look at Commercial Whaling). I think Cloning works perfectly well for the baseline science, and then having Human Cloning be named differently. You don't need to add the word Animal on top of that. For example, we have Rocketry and Advanced Rocketry -- not Basic Rocketry and Advanced Rocketry.
I'm at the other end of the opinion scale there. I would prefer it if we had 'Early Rocketry' and then 'Advanced Rocketry' to represent the difference.

I believe that if you label something as simply 'Rocketry', you are inferring that that's it, you have it. There's nothing more you need, nothing more to develop about it. You know the whole scale now about the subject and can apply it in every way it applies.

Like Commercial Whaling. Its necessary to have 'Commercial' in there. If we put 'Whaling' we'd be misrepresenting. Because mankind has killed an eaten whales ever since they could build a canoe. But what we had not done yet was realize how many industrial applications could be made from their bodies, in particular the blubber and ambergris that fed lamps, made perfumes, and in general allowed us to start learning what to do with oil long before we realized we could replace the applications of whale blubber with petroleum. We also had not invented yet the weapons systems that would bring in the whales with such ease.

My point is, we didn't invent whaling... that was pretty much a natural foodsource and thus was no different than the invention of fishing (albeit big fish). We DID invent the need for harvesting whales on a mass level suddenly, and that invention was key to unlocking full use of petroleum down the road. So I much prefer it called Commercial Whaling because it defines the difference and I'm quite happier with extra definition and a reduction of vague generalizations.

Cloning follows the same line. Ah, I see, now we know how to do that. So that means there's nothing more to be learned about it and we can apply all its applications now at this... wait... you mean I need another tech down the road to learn how to clone people? But I thought I knew how to clone? Irritating. But if we call it Animal cloning, we're clear with the player that, well, you've just earned a bit of knowledge about cloning and have made a breakthrough on cloning animals. (btw, agreed it needs to be much earlier...)

I like the idea about making Dolly a Team Project, and I'd like to add that the first cloned Human should also be a Team Project of a Pandora's Box type nature like the Manhattan Project. (Perhaps our current world's governmental policies are dictated on knowledge of the future shared by those who can travel time already... ever considered THAT?) Cloning as a Civic... hmm... that'd be a bit like slavery and perhaps should be along the same lineage (which has been demanding its own line for a while now).

As for the dream stuff (um... how could one not like Inception???) etc...

Emotional Transistors are chemicals that can be placed in the body through any number of innocent seeming means, such as in the food or water supply etc. These chemicals, usually metals, are pretty much innocent in and of themselves, but in sufficient volume allow for the reception of radio frequency transmissions for either weaponized purpose, medical purpose, or even, as some fringe conspiracy theorists suggest, mind control purposes. In other words, if these metals are inside the bodies of a populace of people, in enough volume, radio transmissions could be utilized to ignite these materials inside them (think of metal in a microwave oven) or possibly transmit thoughts that they would hear and believe to be their own. Medically, some interesting cures for many kinds of cancer are proven to work with this kind of method (using such transistor elements that are only attracted to stay inside cancer cells.)

The Binary Neurotransmitters would be like the holy grail of all development working towards Android technology. The brain and the neurological web throughout the body are little more than a complex, biochemical computer. At some point, our research should be able to decode the base process down to the level of binary transmission. This is theoretically possible going off the basis of logic that ALL reality can be boiled down to binary expressions. Once the connection between computer processing at its fundamental level, and biological processing is made, all hell breaks loose for an enormous amount of discoveries to come. Computers jacking directly into the brain, adding memory space, allowing true artificial reality experiences, and yes, connecting to the world of dreams, recording experiences, replaying them, implanting them. Dream Forensics would simply be the additional application of this core unlocking technology to research the reality of events by directly viewing them through the eyes of those who perceived them, or spying on someone's ongoing thought process by scanning their dreams (which could possibly be done by satellite without the observed even being aware of it.)

The more we talk about this stuff, the more I think we should really take a look at every tech in great detail, step by step... I loved what Civ Fuehrer brought up earlier... all those were awesome!
 
I hope everyone realizes the value in working together,
and fitting our ideas together.
The more discussion and debate on making it better, the better!
Anything controversial can be parked or discussed until it can be worked out.
Sometimes better solutions take time to figure out.
Sometimes we have to try to make the best decision possible for the moment; so that we are free to keep moving.
We all want the best game to keep getting better; please try to stay inclusive.
Debating ideas is what moves us forward!
:)
 
I'm at the other end of the opinion scale there. I would prefer it if we had 'Early Rocketry' and then 'Advanced Rocketry' to represent the difference.
...
As for the dream stuff (um... how could one not like Inception???) etc...

Emotional Transistors are chemicals that can be placed in the body through any number of innocent seeming means, such as in the food or water supply etc. These chemicals, usually metals, are pretty much innocent in and of themselves, but in sufficient volume allow for the reception of radio frequency transmissions for either weaponized purpose, medical purpose, or even, as some fringe conspiracy theorists suggest, mind control purposes. In other words, if these metals are inside the bodies of a populace of people, in enough volume, radio transmissions could be utilized to ignite these materials inside them (think of metal in a microwave oven) or possibly transmit thoughts that they would hear and believe to be their own. Medically, some interesting cures for many kinds of cancer are proven to work with this kind of method (using such transistor elements that are only attracted to stay inside cancer cells.)

The Binary Neurotransmitters would be like the holy grail of all development working towards Android technology. The brain and the neurological web throughout the body are little more than a complex, biochemical computer. At some point, our research should be able to decode the base process down to the level of binary transmission. This is theoretically possible going off the basis of logic that ALL reality can be boiled down to binary expressions. Once the connection between computer processing at its fundamental level, and biological processing is made, all hell breaks loose for an enormous amount of discoveries to come. Computers jacking directly into the brain, adding memory space, allowing true artificial reality experiences, and yes, connecting to the world of dreams, recording experiences, replaying them, implanting them. Dream Forensics would simply be the additional application of this core unlocking technology to research the reality of events by directly viewing them through the eyes of those who perceived them, or spying on someone's ongoing thought process by scanning their dreams (which could possibly be done by satellite without the observed even being aware of it.)

The more we talk about this stuff, the more I think we should really take a look at every tech in great detail, step by step... I loved what Civ Fuehrer brought up earlier... all those were awesome!

Going off of what you said, I too prefer more definition in my naming conventions, but the two simple techs up there I find are rather sudden and not very informative.

Oh and one thing I forgot to add - the inception tech would allow for dream advertisement. If any of you ever watched Futurama, then you'd know what that is: corporations can advertise their products in your dreams.
 
Great discussion, this is the way to do the future eras right, with the input of everyone.

2. Vokarya, I'm fine with leaving it as Cloning, but then we need to have a civic that enables Human cloning (and the Clone units). I'll leave that to CIVPlayer, as he has sort of become the civics guy.

OK. I think that works even better. I think I mentioned this before, but I don't see human cloning as scientifically different from cloning other large mammals (although I could be wrong, since we haven't really tried that much). I think having a civic enable human cloning instead of a separate tech is a good solution -- this represents the difference between "Can you do this?" and "Will you do this?"

On another note, why is the Superhuman civic at Cloning and not Homo Superior? How can you have superhumans without superior humans?
 
Because Superhuman Civic is a want of getting there, not a way to do it. Enough knowledge exists to know the goal but not yet how to accomplish it. Meanwhile those with most power decide who is considered worth more and who is not. Heck, it's done today already.
At Homo Superior that method becomes full reality (though I can assure you that those with influence and power will not be among those Homo Superiors... at least not the first few hundred years.)

Cheers
 
What is in your eyes actually the application of cloning? Well, there is organ cloning to generate replacement parts for humans but lets talk about full human cloning.
In principle without applying other technologies it just creates a twin of the one the genes are from that grows up like a normal human and the result is a normal human if everything goes well. Since he will grow up in a different environment, it is somewhat like twins that grow up separated (and have a significant age difference in this case).

Other technologies that are often mixed in that in fiction although they don't really depend on it being a clone are indoctrination and rapid growth. Rapid growth is a far more difficult technology than cloning as you need to change the timing and probably lots of growth control patterns and in some cases it probably won't be acceleratable by a meaningful amount. And even if you accelerate the growth of the body, you still need to teach the mind and it is hard to say how far you can actually speed that up and get a sane and skilled human in the end.
 
Because Superhuman Civic is a want of getting there, not a way to do it. Enough knowledge exists to know the goal but not yet how to accomplish it. Meanwhile those with most power decide who is considered worth more and who is not. Heck, it's done today already.
At Homo Superior that method becomes full reality (though I can assure you that those with influence and power will not be among those Homo Superiors... at least not the first few hundred years.)

Cheers

Fair enough. I just thought of the connections Homo = Human and Superior = Super.
 
What is in your eyes actually the application of cloning? Well, there is organ cloning to generate replacement parts for humans but lets talk about full human cloning.
In principle without applying other technologies it just creates a twin of the one the genes are from that grows up like a normal human and the result is a normal human if everything goes well. Since he will grow up in a different environment, it is somewhat like twins that grow up separated (and have a significant age difference in this case).

Other technologies that are often mixed in that in fiction although they don't really depend on it being a clone are indoctrination and rapid growth. Rapid growth is a far more difficult technology than cloning as you need to change the timing and probably lots of growth control patterns and in some cases it probably won't be acceleratable by a meaningful amount. And even if you accelerate the growth of the body, you still need to teach the mind and it is hard to say how far you can actually speed that up and get a sane and skilled human in the end.

Replacement Organs and Regenerative Medicine were techs - I'm not sure if we are keeping them. That would cover cloning organs, or growing artificial ones. I think Cloning is best served as a "jumping-off" tech for future genetic manipulation, and cloning animals for food or other purposes (like RePet). Wherever human cloning winds up, that should give bonuses to population growth (create new people far more efficiently) and worker units (clone the best people for the job). Once we add a tech for rapid learning (probably before Brain-Machine Interface), then we can have the really cheap clone military units start appearing.
 
Replacement Organs and Regenerative Medicine were techs - I'm not sure if we are keeping them.

Those two got merged in my plans into Advanced Molecular biology, which I intend to encompass basic manipulation of genes, hormones, proteins, and other biological molecules.
 
Replacement Organs and Regenerative Medicine were techs - I'm not sure if we are keeping them. That would cover cloning organs, or growing artificial ones. I think Cloning is best served as a "jumping-off" tech for future genetic manipulation, and cloning animals for food or other purposes (like RePet). Wherever human cloning winds up, that should give bonuses to population growth (create new people far more efficiently) and worker units (clone the best people for the job). Once we add a tech for rapid learning (probably before Brain-Machine Interface), then we can have the really cheap clone military units start appearing.
All of this above I completely agree with.

I can concede on the cloning naming point as it is meant to represent the simplest cloning procedures, as we have developed in RL already.

Under this tech, the Dolly project should be a Team Project unlocked at this tech. It took a bit of time from the point that we figured out how to clone anything to develop the ability to clone something as complex as a mammal.

And yeah, alright, so we would still have some further tech to develop to clone a human, but at that point, its pretty much proof of potential, thus Dolly should unlock the potential for the civic of Human Cloning (on what civic line would THIS lie? It's almost one of those yes/no determination points we were discussing earlier.)

Then, the civic would unlock the ability to build another team project: the Human Cloning procedure, which would unlock a lot of other options, buildings and units that don't necessarily require the aforementioned 'other techs' necessary to make complete duplications of a person as they currently exist.

The Clone workers shouldn't require that degree of tech really as I think of them as just clones grown and put to work as they mature. I think cloned military units selected from the strongest stock and raised for nothing more than war (as in the Clone Wars of the Star Wars saga) would be unlocked here as well, making for generically stronger versions of all the mostly human unit types that exist at this time possible.

Once those other techs mentioned are reached, the ability to duplicate units (those of a more biological nature rather than robotic or highly mechanical) with XP and all should be unlocked, and the political ramifications (duplicating world leaders/bringing back older world leaders, political assassinations and replacements, a leader replacing himself with himself once he grows too old to continue etc...) would be enormous.
 
Also cloning can involve cloning non-animals like plants and microbes.
We have been cloning plants for a long long time. Whenever you cut off a piece of a plant and let it grow into a new plant you are actually cloning the plant. It is one of their main modes of reproduction and for microbes it is even the only one.

cloning animals for food
Wherever human cloning winds up, that should give bonuses to population growth (create new people far more efficiently)
It is NOT more efficient to clone people or animals. When you clone someone, you end up with an egg cell ready to grow, no different than if you would have used the standard reproduction technique involving a man and a woman.

The Clone workers shouldn't require that degree of tech really as I think of them as just clones grown and put to work as they mature.
Child labor?
Why would being a late twin of a grownup make you a lesser being?

Fiction writers like cloning but they are in love with a version of cloning that has nothing to do with reality.
 
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