C2C - UEM - Ultimate-Earth-Map 100% MOD and SVN update compatible by Pit2015

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Upscaled Unit and Building Costs. The AI does Not know how to handle this.

What is it about this that is causing problems? I thought this is just an increase to the cost of units and buildings. If it is then of course the AI knows how to handle it, otherwise no mod that changed the cost of anything would work.

 

[Thunderbrd]

You will help the AI a lot if you stop using the Option: Upscaled Unit and Building Costs. The AI does Not know how to handle this. Also stop using the City limits Options, they hurt the AI as well.

JosEPh

I'd have to back you on these. Upscaled is probably severely out of date and not setup properly to truly modify according to its intention. Additionally, city limits options seem... unnecessary.


Interesting that 10% is a good number there. I would've thought it would kill the AI expansion efforts.

 

[Pit2015]

You will help the AI a lot if you stop using the Option: Upscaled Unit and Building Costs. The AI does Not know how to handle this. Also stop using the City limits Options, they hurt the AI as well.

JosEPh

Upscaled Unit and Building Costs may help if that cost more maintainance, so the AI have less to pay for maintainance. Or is it only affecting the building of a unit and building cost? I will check this also...

City limits option sucks? Why? You meen Larger Citys Without Metropolitan Administration? Minimal city borders has been already removed. Look on page 1 there is a list of all used options, wich one should be removed for any city limits?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Upscaled Unit and Building Costs may help if that cost more maintainance, so the AI have less to pay for maintainance. Or is it only affecting the building of a unit and building cost? I will check this also...

City limits option sucks? Why? You meen Larger Citys Without Metropolitan Administration? Minimal city borders has been already removed. Look on page 1 there is a list of all used options, wich one you meen?

1) Only affects the costs and adjustments aren't giving what they were intended to give as they are outdated.

2) He means city limit options (extra unhappiness from number of cities.) Not just minimal city borders or lager cities without metropolitan admin.

 

[Pit2015]

Ok i checked Upscaled Unit and Building Costs, it is not increasing the maintainance cost, so its good because the AI cant build units to fast, they can do now with a city of 12 pop 2 units a turn, more than enouth, so this option is good and works. But maybe its better when the AI can build buildings faster, so i will remove that better also.

Ok understood, so then i maybe should enable the option: "No city limits from civics" yep that may help, i will change that in UEM 2.6 and reupload, so please look at page 1 one all enabled options, anymore problems or good to go with these options?

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip>

Ok understood, so then i maybe should enable the option: "No city limits from civics" yep that may help, i will change that in UEM 2.6 and reupload, so please look at page 1 one all enabled options, anymore problems or good to go with these options?

No, I mean to Uncheck that City Limits by Civics and/or the Option Scale City Limits. You already have 1 of them active. You used the Play now default set to start your Scenario and City Limits by Civics is part of the default set. Which I need to discuss with Team members about changing the Default set.

EDIT: had it backwards Yes Check the box for No City Limits from Civics. Sorry for the confusion.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

Last minute change - I re-uploaded version 2.6 re-download this version:

Upscaled Unit and Building Costs option removed, will help the AI.
No City Limits from Civics option added to scenario, will help the AI.

-Pit 2015

 

[JosEPh_II]

Pit,
I'm working/testing the real early game gold killer for the AI. It's the Civic set Anarchism. It's Number of City Maint. % is 200 which even on Marathon starts the game with a -5 /turn. The 2nd turn in the game the research slider on marathon adjusts down to 50% and 0 /turn with 0 treasury balance. On Eternity it's much much (not mutch ) worse.

Once I find the right balance I will tell you what it should be set to. I'm shooting for a 0 per turn at 75% research slider.

EDIT: Actually the 1st 4 starting Civics have a combined Number of City Maint. penalties that add up to an almost 500% increase in maintenance costs for Just the Capital city on each empire alone to start the game. This is still some of the residual effects of Blue Genie's efforts to curb early game. I'm close to a rough balance for Eternity by lowering the Number of City Maint costs on Anarchism, Strongman, and Obedience, 3 of the starting Civics.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

No more gold problems as i told you with that, changed from 40 to 10:

\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

<!-- Size Matters Most end -->
<!-- AI Gold Slider Safety Percent begin -->
<!-- This is the BASE amount of slider allocation required towards gold that the AI feels comfortable with -->
<!-- It noteworthily affects how much tolerance the AI has where it feels ready to grow -->
<!-- Reduce to make the AI more sensitive to gold concerns and increase for more reckless behavior -->
<!-- This may be rather interesting to convert to an AI personality matter or at least give a personality based modifier eventually -->
<!-- Original Value was set to 50 - I've adjusted to 40.-->
<Define>
<DefineName>SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

This was tested with marathon speed, will help when you read all postings here.
Yes city maintainance is high a bit at a new builded city.

 

[JosEPh_II]

No more gold problems as i told you with that, changed from 40 to 10:

\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

<!-- Size Matters Most end -->
<!-- AI Gold Slider Safety Percent begin -->
<!-- This is the BASE amount of slider allocation required towards gold that the AI feels comfortable with -->
<!-- It noteworthily affects how much tolerance the AI has where it feels ready to grow -->
<!-- Reduce to make the AI more sensitive to gold concerns and increase for more reckless behavior -->
<!-- This may be rather interesting to convert to an AI personality matter or at least give a personality based modifier eventually -->
<!-- Original Value was set to 50 - I've adjusted to 40.-->
<Define>
<DefineName>SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

This was tested with marathon speed, will help when you read all postings here.
Yes city maintainance is high a bit at a new builded city.

I read ALL your postings so cut that crap out, totally uncalled for. What I'm referring to affects All games, not just your scenario.

Be a little more diplomatic in your replies and you will get my help. Otherwise........meh.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

This fix is affecting all games joseph, works for all games as i said before. This is a fix in the mod not in my scenario. I am always diplomatic to you, i just tell and show you things as they are, not as you like them, maybe my english is not the best but just accept that i am a experienced gamer for 30 years that can show you and fix some bugs for you, i builded that map for a long game, i love this mod and i want it to work and the map was many work. So dont cry and cool when you read all, i appreciate your help. I dont want to hurt the mod with showing these bugs i just want to make it better and make it work, so i can start a ultra long challenging earth game.

 

[Pit2015]

Very nice, with all my changes UEM 2.6 AI plays mutch better and can conserve gold correctly and is ahead of me in research currently. Much harder to keep up with the AI now.

Change list:

Regular_CIV4BuildingInfo.xml

I changed Community Discussions to:

<!-- Special properties -->
<iAsset>1</iAsset>
<Flavors>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_SCIENCE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>20</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
<Flavor>
<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
<iFlavor>10</iFlavor>
</Flavor>
</Flavors>
<iConquestProb>15</iConquestProb>
<iHurryCostModifier>100</iHurryCostModifier>
<iAdvancedStartCost>-1</iAdvancedStartCost>
<!-- Properties diffusion -->

Also i increased the AIweight in community discussion from 20 to 80.

\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

Then you have to change this form 40 to <iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal> to make this work (Then the AI is able to handle gold correctly and still builds enouth citys, AI is increasing there gold reserves also slowly now):

<!-- Size Matters Most end -->
<!-- AI Gold Slider Safety Percent begin -->
<!-- This is the BASE amount of slider allocation required towards gold that the AI feels comfortable with -->
<!-- It noteworthily affects how much tolerance the AI has where it feels ready to grow -->
<!-- Reduce to make the AI more sensitive to gold concerns and increase for more reckless behavior -->
<!-- This may be rather interesting to convert to an AI personality matter or at least give a personality based modifier eventually -->
<!-- Original Value was set to 50 - I've adjusted to 40.-->
<Define>
<DefineName>SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

Also the new scenario option balancing is helping the AI. UEM 2.6 is good for a long game now, only problem what may come in later is the -gold from early crimes, i can provide a fix if that still makes problems. Deity + Eternity game speed works very good now, marathon also.

 

[JosEPh_II]

What is it about this that is causing problems? I thought this is just an increase to the cost of units and buildings. If it is then of course the AI knows how to handle it, otherwise no mod that changed the cost of anything would work.

Because on the longer Game speeds it puts the start of the game in a Big financial hole. It is an added problem for many AI Leaders/Leader Traits.

Plus 4 Starting Civics have astronomical penalties for just the Starting/Capital city alone thru Number of Cities Maint. Cost penalty. You start the Game with a -/turn. After turn 1 the AI adjusts it's Research slider down to compensate. On Eternity and Eon this can be 0% Research and still -/turn and is dependent upon your Leaders traits and starting position on Maps with fixed start locations. Pit's scenario is a prime example. The 1st 50 turns can doom some AI. Pit has already taken another approach that you and T-Brd have commented on.

My testing shows that if the 4 starting Civics with the Number of Cities Penalty % is reduced from it's current aggregate total of ~500% cost to around ~300% cost the AI can "survive" (not flourish though) this period of starting turns on the Longer game speeds.

I still have not found where the -/turn starting turn comes from. But with these changes the -5 1st turn -/turn is over come by the 2nd turn from the AI adjusting the Research slider down. But for some AI leaders this can be 0% Research and stil no .Now those leaders that have Creative as a trait can easily absorb this loss of beakers per turn. But those that are Creative and Education property deficient have a much harder time.

This also brings up another added burden and that is the Starting Education Property penalty at game start (Education level Unaware). The -5% penalty on all properties and main base values (research, gold, Culture, hammers, etc.) may not seem to be much but make a bigger impact on the slower game speeds. They do reduce starting , , , etc. by at least 1 full value. Again painfully slowing some AI down to the point of going into Strike too early in the game. I would propose a PrereqTech be added before the Education Property can kick in.

And a word for the Deity level players, yes this will give a bit more early game, which I know you all don't like. Your complaint is it makes the game too easy. The problem is this though, if the AI is struggling to even make it thru the 1st 100 turns of a game financially then your Challenge of being a Deity level player is compromised by a weakened and slower to respond AI. So your challenge is lessened More than if you have a bit more in your Treasury. The AI must have a good supply to flourish and be a challenge for all players no matter the difficulty level.

I have much more to say on this subject but it should probably be in a New Thread.

JosEPh

 

[Pit2015]

Joseph try this with UEM 2.6 if you like at marathon or eternity. You will see the benefits. There is no more gold problem for the AI for the first 300 turns at least. You can build up from there...

\Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml

Then you have to change this form 40 to <iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal> to make this work (Then the AI is able to handle gold correctly and still builds enouth citys, AI is increasing there gold reserves also slowly now):

<!-- Size Matters Most end -->
<!-- AI Gold Slider Safety Percent begin -->
<!-- This is the BASE amount of slider allocation required towards gold that the AI feels comfortable with -->
<!-- It noteworthily affects how much tolerance the AI has where it feels ready to grow -->
<!-- Reduce to make the AI more sensitive to gold concerns and increase for more reckless behavior -->
<!-- This may be rather interesting to convert to an AI personality matter or at least give a personality based modifier eventually -->
<!-- Original Value was set to 50 - I've adjusted to 40.-->
<Define>
<DefineName>SAFE_GOLD_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

 

[JosEPh_II]

I understand what you've done and it is a quick fix that works for now. But not enough testing to say what the long run side effects it may or may not produce, Since it is a GlobalDefine value.

We are both working in the same direction. What I'm talking about is a more subtle change than a GlobalDefine in impact. You just used a sledgehammer approach while I'm trying to just use a less dramatic approach.

Have you updated your 2.6 version?

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, I'm intrigued to see further testing on that setting. I'm not going to rule out that it may be a very positive change now that other reasons for poor settling speed have been found and uprooted. May never have been this variable causing a problem and it may be that the AI is too cautionless when it comes to its gold expenses and this could be a good solution.

But it needs tested tested tested to prove it. I'm not yet comfortable throwing it onto the main SVN until it is.

 

[Pit2015]

Yep 2.6 is updated, i startet a deity + eternity game in 2.6, works fine so far. There is no other way then to use the fix i made i think, because if it is done in any other ways then the AI will not be able to control there gold correctly, so that will result in the problem that the AI will build more units than they can affort and pay maintainance for. There is more work needed to make the AI and balance better fore sure, but i strongly suggest that you build it up on my change, AI has to be cautious with gold, otherwise they will go bankrupt allways in later timelines. The AI builded on marathon speed 2-4 citys in about 300-400 turns, thats ok, if they expand to fast they go bankrupt like the player will, so game over for sure. AI gold has to work, and only works when the AI can conserve a bit of the gold that they get. So with that 40 to 10 the AI makes a small amount of +gold and as it looks like they dont build more units that they can afford, so its needed. Also AI plays better now then me at start, i may come up in 200 turns a bit, so the AI is more challenging and so AI is agressive enouth. (I can create +5 research at start with USA, the AI +8 to +10 mostly)

So get UEM 2.6 or use my fix in your own games and test with that. Maybe its not perfect yet, but looks like. Give some feedback here how its working for you and with your settings... best should be to test with UEM 2.6 because there are no scenario options used anymore that disrupt the AI.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't have time to be testing at the moment but if someone else takes a run and reports back I'll be watching for that feedback. I'm considering the adjustment because it does sound positive.

 

[Pit2015]

Also: If the gamer wants a more agressive AI or more revolutions, then they should increase there difficult level to deity, thats a harder game then. No way to kill the AI for lower difficulty levels and make the AI to cant handle gold correctly. Ok i will game some thousands turns more in that game and keep feedback up here. More testers needed.

 

[Harrier]

I am always diplomatic to you, i just tell and show you things as they are, not as you like them, maybe my english is not the best

You are European, he is American. We Europeans - understand your culture's seemingly bluntness, but not intended.

I do not think the Americans do. So at times you appear to be too harsh when you do not mean to be. Hence the confusion.