Calling some experts - advice for Prince+

ifinnem

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Hi All

An avid Civ fan from the original on :) (altho I missed out on Civ III) I have recently discovered the wealth of knowledge on these forums and it has reignited my interest. Plan to follow the ALC history for sure.

Posted my mid game save for my current Prince effort. Would love some comments on my style and what things I should consider.

Settings are all the normal ones:
Civilzation: Roman
World Size: Standard
Opponents: 4 (I like being able to spread out a bit)
Temperate Climate
Normal Sea Level
All Victory Conditions Enabled except Space Race
Permanent Alliances Enabled
Normal Game Speed
Normal Barbarians

I have yet to win on Prince altho I find Noble a cinch. I think my biggest weakness is risk aversion - take to long to build up for war etc.
Also I'm sure there are other tactic I could learn from. Certainly don't use whipping at all for one. Another is minimal us of GPs.

Any comments welcome, here are a few questions to get things rolling:
  • Are hills a good site for cities? (literally founding on a hill)
  • I tend to shy away from High Upkeep Civics - what advice on how to choose
  • How does one decide how many workers are needed? - often find a mid-game period when they are idle till Railroad
  • Working tiles - does a typical game need one to change the improvements at some point or is it once a farm (e.g.) always a farm?

Looking forward to the thoughts....
 

Attachments

On top of a plains-hill is a good spot for a city because it gets you one extra shield worth of production, right away, permanently. When you build a city that will likely be attacked, any hill is good, for the defense bonus.

Regarding workers, it has been optimal in my games to have about enough workers so that during the pre-railroad part of the game, for maybe 20 turns, they have nothing good to do except build mostly-pointless roads. roads that don't connect your cities to one another can still be used to speed up your units if enemies attack from surprising locations. It is also nice to have all of your potential lumbermill-railroad and mine-railroad spots roaded before railroads show up.

"Working tiles ... is it once a farm (e.g.) always a farm?" ... I often have a shortage of worker-time to change improvements after they're built. I try to pick improvements that will be useful 'til the end of the game.

A city that's set up to use a farm (might be a farms+grassland-hill-mines city) can often be used best if it is kept as a city with farms. The same is often true of other improvements. However, i can give a few examples of when I'm inclined to change improvements. If I use the state property civic, workshops become very powerful so I'll sometimes build them over farms. Windmills/watermills often become worthwile once they get the production bonus they get from replaceable parts, so I'll build windmills to allow a city to grow while getting production from the mill. When I get biology, sometimes I get too much food and want to change farms into workshops or cottages.
 
There are excellent War Academy articles on the CFC main page that address your issues regarding great people, using Slavery, and choosing civics.

Hills are fine for city locations. However, my main proirities in placing a city are (a) getting as many special resources in the workable area and (b) making sure there's enough food to run the city. If that location happens to be on a hill, great.

The upkeep cost on civics is nowhere near as high as the game would lead you to believe. Units, City Maintenance, and Inflation are usually higher. The civics are generally suited to a particular goal or strategy. Want to spread your religion and improve production? Go with Organized Religion. Want to wage a war? Switch to Theocracy while building your army. Each of the civics contains an underlying strategic objective or two.

It's true that workers are a feast-or-famine type thing. Early, you can never have enough. On a standard map, I build about 10 of them and supplement them with captives from other civs.

Changing improvements is tricky, especially since you have so many choices. By the early industrial period, you could build a farm, workshop, watermill, or cottage on a grassland river tile. Again you need to set an objective for the city. What is its primary function?

Once you have decided that, it's a matter of determining how big your city can get (capped by happiness, or less often, health) and then making sure you have enough farms/pastures/workboats to feed that maximum population. The rest of the tiles are improved for the city's speciality -- hammers (production), commerce (for science or gold), or food (for Great Person farms and other food economies).
 
ifinnen said:
Are hills a good site for cities? (literally founding on a hill

They're not bad sites since they get a defensive bonus and, in the case of a plains/hill, an additional hammer from the city tile. All other things being equal they are better sites than flat land, but it isn't worth going to too much effort to found on them.

I tend to shy away from High Upkeep Civics - what advice on how to choose

Despite the fuss made about civic upkeep in the documentation, and endless messing round with the upkeep in patches, it is of minimal relevance to whether a civic is actually worth running. I've never been in a position where the cost of a civic was significant factor in my decisions.

How does one decide how many workers are needed? - often find a mid-game period when they are idle till Railroad

If you're playing well, a period of idle workers is fairly inevitable. You want to get improvements in place fast (idly you never work an unimproved tile where possible), so workers are top priority early on. A workforce that matches early improvement pace has generally run out of things to do by the middle ages, and so must sit idle till the invention of railroads, which is their last major job. It's worth hanging on to them though for rapid repairs to pillaged or otherwise destroyed improvements, and hooking up resources that appear in the industrial age onwards.

Demonstrating a certain lack of planning, two of the worker speed boosts (Serfdom and Hagia Sophia) appear in this "idle period" for workers, rendering them practically useless.

Working tiles - does a typical game need one to change the improvements at some point or is it once a farm (e.g.) always a farm?

There is a strategy of farming everything early and then cottaging over it later on - the so-called "transition economy". I've never got it to work very well. Generally you improve for the long run, though a certain amount of adjustment to get the food balance perfect is usually necessary.
 
Hi All

An avid Civ fan from the original on :) (altho I missed out on Civ III) I have recently discovered the wealth of knowledge on these forums and it has reignited my interest. Plan to follow the ALC history for sure.

Posted my mid game save for my current Prince effort. Would love some comments on my style and what things I should consider.

Settings are all the normal ones:
Civilzation: Roman
World Size: Standard
Opponents: 4 (I like being able to spread out a bit)
Temperate Climate
Normal Sea Level
All Victory Conditions Enabled except Space Race
Permanent Alliances Enabled
Normal Game Speed
Normal Barbarians

I have yet to win on Prince altho I find Noble a cinch. I think my biggest weakness is risk aversion - take to long to build up for war etc.
Also I'm sure there are other tactic I could learn from. Certainly don't use whipping at all for one. Another is minimal us of GPs.

Any comments welcome, here are a few questions to get things rolling:

Are hills a good site for cities? (literally founding on a hill)

Put it this way - so far as I can tell, there is never a downside to founding on a hill. Hills always provide a defensive bonus and, as has been stated, a bonus hammer on plains hills. So, check out what the fat cross would cover on the hill, and if you can get the same number of good tiles (specials, floodplains, water access and whatnot) from the hill as on flat land, found on the hill.

I tend to shy away from High Upkeep Civics - what advice on how to choose

Depends on the situation, really. I never worry about upkeep, though. What's a couple more coins a turn versus, say, +25% on building or unit production, or the ability to whip some libraries in those island cities with all the seafood?

How does one decide how many workers are needed? - often find a mid-game period when they are idle till Railroad

One of the advantages of having an early war is that you can generally nab a few AI workers. I think 2 per city is about right when you have up to 6 cities, after that, maybe one worker per excess city. Of course, your workers will be idle if you aren't capturing cities and building new improvements, or founding new cities of your own.

Working tiles - does a typical game need one to change the improvements at some point or is it once a farm (e.g.) always a farm?

I change improvements infrequently. I almost never change a hamlet, village or town (:eek: ) to anything else. I'll sometimes change windmills to mines and vice versa (I tend to windmill up the mines in my commerce cities once I get to Electricity - especially when Financial). Sometimes you can cottage a farm after Biology where you have a big food surplus (again, a good idea when Financial).

Generally - why do you feel the need to spread out a lot if you're playing the Romans? Spreading out is something the AI does. When you're Roman, it pays to have some neighbours who will build cities for you.
 
Sometimes it is a good idea to change improvements, and you should have enough workers to do this. How many workers? Enough that you are rarely if ever working an unimproved tile. If you are planning to settle some jungle cities, plan on extra workers.

I've begun changing improvements more recently, usually from farms to cottages workshops or watermills. Here is a good example from my most recent game:

My third city was settled on a river in a non-ideal spot to grab territory and block the AIs from a land access to iron early in the game. It had 3 forest plains, 2 grassland hills, and a plains hill. The rest of the tiles were grasslands except for a mountain peak and 2 coast squares that would be 1 food because I had to settle 1 away from the sea to block off the area. 7 of the grasslands were riverside tiles, and my leader was financial, so these would all eventually be cottages. The city had no food resources though, and would not be able to both produce hammers and grow without farms. So pre civil service, all the riverside grasslands got farms. After civil service, the non-river grasslands got farms, and then I switched 6 of the 7 riverside squares to cottages. The city started out as a modest production city for the war effort and transformed into more of a commerce city with fair production. Once Levees and Universal Sufferage are online, This city will have very nice production along with fairly decent commerce. Once Biology is reached, more tiles will be switched. A farm or 2 will now be able to become a workshop for better production.

For many cities it is good to start with farms to get growth for whipping production and then later on switch to more useful improvements. Getting production is more important than ever with BTS. It's easier to out-tech the AI, but far more military is required, and the tech advantage is useless if you can't build the military for either conquest or defense. In vanilla civIV I hated to waste a grassland tile with a farm. Now in BTS, it is routine for me to have quite a few farms.
 
As many people have pointed out changing improvements late game can be beneficial, especially building workshops and watermills later when they reach their full potential. One thing you can do to speed this up is to pre-build these improvements. Say you have a farm that you will want to later change to a workshop after communism. Set the worker to build a workshop but then stop it on the turn before it completes. When you eventually do come to change it later it will only require 1 turn and the whole cities improvements can be changed over rapidly. This can also keep your worker busy during the mid-game although it does introduce a fair bit of micromanagement
 
  • I tend to shy away from High Upkeep Civics - what advice on how to choose
  • How does one decide how many workers are needed? - often find a mid-game period when they are idle till Railroad
  • Working tiles - does a typical game need one to change the improvements at some point or is it once a farm (e.g.) always a farm?
Just one more point about high upkeep civics: you're playing as Rome; if it's Julius, you're Organized, which lowers the cost of those civics even further. So definitely run those high-cost civics (Organized Religion is my favourite--a free forge in every city with your state religion, what's not to love?) to leverage that trait.

Workers: I think reaching idle points with the Workers is a sign that you have enough. I try to have a ratio of 1 to 1.5 per city in the early game; by mid-game I team them (2-3 Workers per team) to accelerate how fast they can get things done.

Changing tiles depends on a lot of things. I'll often farm or cottage banana and dye tiles, for example, until I have Calendar for plantations. As the game goes on you may want to specialize the city and tile improvements are a big part of that. Don't ever be averse to changing a tile improvement to suit your strategy.
 
Thanks for all the advice. Have been reading all the while - apologies for the delayed acknowledgement. Will post some follow up thoughts shortly.

In the end I managed to pull of a last gasp diplomatic victory on this game - Cyrus will kick himself! MY first prince victory although with a few things tweaked to make it easier). Am starting a new game where I plan to try a variety of things - SE, more use of GP, MC/P gambit etc

Will post a saved game in the next few days that I would love some specific thoughts on.
 
Hey....have made short work of noble, but prince is startin to rock me.....I go with ghandi as a leader because no matter what game i play, the indians are always at/near the top...any strategy tips for leader choosing/city mgmt that will help at prince and above??
 
funny thing happened at the bar last weekend too....some old HS buddies i saw the week b4 i had told i was rockin civ 4 like the old civ addict i was....sure enough, at the bar the next week, they go "YOU IDIOT!! NOW WE CANT STOP EITHER!" so my one friend, who stopped after civ 1 goes "How can you guys play that game? all i got was civil disorder all the time, and that was the easiest level!"
 
Hey....have made short work of noble, but prince is startin to rock me.....I go with ghandi as a leader because no matter what game i play, the indians are always at/near the top...any strategy tips for leader choosing/city mgmt that will help at prince and above??

Generally, as you move up through the difficulty levels, you'll find that there's less that you can accomplish, especially early in the game. Whereas at the lower levels you were able to snag most of the early wonders, found several religions, and conquer your nearest neighbours, as you move up you'll have to choose from between all those options. It's often best to focus on a specific goal early in the game and dedicate all your meager resources towards it.
 
Have been working through all the thoughts so thanks again. Think it will be helpful for anyway reading this to see a summary of what I learned. Then having tried some new things in my new game I have some more questions.

1) Great People - focus on a single city with the national epic
2) Civics - Change whenever it makes sense based on the game situation and essentially ignore upkeep costs in the decision
3) Slavery - Vocum Sine Ratio was very good! I reccommend it. A few of the tactical suggestions:
  • Whip buildings that are cheaper for your leader trait - production multiplier applies to whipping too
  • Can really whip up an army with hereditary rule and or globe theatre to conteract unhappiness
  • Able to store hammers (overflow) in units or buildings for later use
4) Seems like idle workers mid game is inevitable. Again a few good suggestions as follows:
  • Plan on about 1.5 workers for every city
  • Operate them in teams of about 3 - better to build 1 improvement completely than 3 partially in the same time
  • If you plan on changing improvements you can" pre complete" the change to the point where only a single turn is required (especially when workers would have been idle otherwise)
5) Tile improvement changes - only generally done in special circumstances (e.g. converting to a riverside ironworks city)

:king: So in the quest to be Emperor I set out with a new game where I tried the following and more:
  • Liberal use of whipping
  • MC/P gambit - which I completed although a little later than ideal
  • SE economy
  • Default game settings back up to 6/7 rivals
Basically the game went well but is full of challenges, mistakes and hence learning for me.
I got an early tech lead on most of my rivals. Adopted hinduism along with Gandhi and Monty (to keep him at bay)
However I did not have access to copper or iron and so ended up getting boxed in land wise - with no way of fighting myself out. I'm quite proud of how I then snuck through Gandhi's land to found a city near iron - which was still in his cultural borders. I then beelined to Music and used the free artist to culture bomb. Voila, :) access to Iron.
I had a brief chariot based war with Saladin and got Monty to join in. However that was not too fruitful.
After building up maceman and some cats I picked my next target - Kublai. This was based on the fact that I didn't want to attack other Hindus but needed land close by - hence Kublai.
This took a lot longer than I would have hoped and although I conquered several cities and have a much stronger empire I had an economic slowdown due to unhappiness.
Kublai is down to a few crap cities but still alive and kicking. I have switched back to economic civics and still have a tech lead over most and am about even with Gandhi. The other thing I missed was getting to Democ - got side tracked during the war. So altho I have now rushed this and hooked up copper I fear that Industrious Gandhi will beat me to the Statue of Liberty. It is now taking stock time to see if I can still achieve the domination victory I was intending too. My only hope is to get to tanks well before the others and wipe them out - but it is already 1800AD so unclear if this is doable.

Here are 3 saved games - early game, mid game and current. Would love some input on:
  • What others would have done differently
  • What others would do now
  • Which victory condition makes sense
Some more specific questions I have are also as follows:
  • Can you sell/delete buildings?
  • Is there a good guide on knowing the behaviour of different leaders and then how to approach them. The ALC discussions etc always refer to xyz is a backstabber, abc always gets a tech lead
  • Can anyone convince me that mounted units are useful pre-knght/elephant and even then a pikeman makes short work of them
  • How fast do cultural defense bonuses grow? Human players vs AI

Finally - is there already a good consolidated guide for Noble players moving up or might that be worth writing if I feel inspired?
 

Attachments

So definitely run those high-cost civics (Organized Religion is my favourite--a free forge in every city with your state religion, what's not to love?)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OR is not quite a forge as the 25% bonus only applies to buildings right?
 
Generally - why do you feel the need to spread out a lot if you're playing the Romans? Spreading out is something the AI does. When you're Roman, it pays to have some neighbours who will build cities for you.

I was making sure not to get shafted in the land grab - but maybe I also don't war early enough typically to overcome this?
 
I don't have time to look through the saves just at the moment, but I'll go through them later. I'll cover your quick questions though.

Can you sell/delete buildings?

No, you can't get rid of your own buildings.

Is there a good guide on knowing the behaviour of different leaders and then how to approach them. The ALC discussions etc always refer to xyz is a backstabber, abc always gets a tech lead

I can't immediately find one, though I'd have thought someone would have done one. A few leaders are fairly obvious though (Montezuma, Shaka, Tokuwaga, Alexander and Isabella, if you don't share her religion, all tend to backstab. Mansa Musa invariably runs a blistering tech pace).

Can anyone convince me that mounted units are useful pre-knght/elephant and even then a pikeman makes short work of them

Possibly I'm not the best person for this, as I have imilar view on their (lack of) usefulness at this point. Chariots counter axemen - but only when attacking, so they do have some role. Horse archers I've never found that useful, except for mopping up enemy archers outside cities, and damaged units. They can flank attack catapults, but this is ineffective against any stack with spears/pikemen.

How fast do cultural defense bonuses grow? Human players vs AI

This is exactly the same for humans and AI at all levels. The cultural defense increase 20% with each border expansion (so 20% at 10 culture, 40% at 100 culture and so on).
 
I think one of the underrated aspects to chariots and horse-archers is that they're good as "defensive" units. You put some here and there around your empire, and they are ready to go anywhere in your early-game empire if someone declares war on you. They can sometimes be used effectively for pillaging, and are good for killing enemy units that show up just to pillage. They're also effective against the tiny "citybuster" stacks of 2 or so units that the AI sometimes sends against you if you aren't the type who builds many archers.
 
I can't immediately find one, though I'd have thought someone would have done one. A few leaders are fairly obvious though (Montezuma, Shaka, Tokuwaga, Alexander and Isabella, if you don't share her religion, all tend to backstab.
I think you've misunderstood the term "backstab". All the leaders you mentioned are obviously hostile unless you go to great lengths (a shared religion, giving in to their demands for tribute) to appease them. But their attitude rating (usually "Annoyed" if not "Furious") and their interactions with you make their intentions clear. You should therefore be able to prepare to deal with them accordingly.

The back-stabbers are the ones who get to "Pleased" or even "Friendly" status and yet will still turn on you unexpectedly. Apparently Catherine is the most notorious for this. From what I understand Joao of Portugal falls into the same category. I've also had Kublai and Qin declare on me when at "Pleased" status. So I'd categorize them as back-stabbers, that is, quite capable of putting a knife in your back when you don't expect it, indeed, when you have worked very hard to ensure it won't happen.
ifinnem said:
Can anyone convince me that mounted units are useful pre-knght/elephant and even then a pikeman makes short work of them

Mounted units definitely have their uses.

Historically, they had two main advantages. First, their speed, allowing them to race around and attack an enemy on their flanks, where they're usually weakest. Second, their power--the horse itself is a weapon, thanks to its momentum, the combination of its weight and its speed. Mounted units were often capable of punching through infantry ranks (or attacking them on their flanks) and making a defensive line buckle. Even just their appearance could do this. It takes a very brave man to stand his ground when a beast several times his weight is charging towards him (let alone a horde of them) and its hoofs are making the very ground beneath his feet shake.

The game's use of units like Spearmen, Pikemen, and Riflemen to counter mounted units is not wholly inaccurate; traditionally, the way for infantry to defend against cavalry was to form up and present the horses with a seemingly-impenetrable line of sharp spear-points (in the case of Rifles, bayonets). No amount of training could overcome a horse's instinct for self-preservation when faced with such an obstacle.

Okay. History geek lecture over. :blush:

Chariots, as MrCynical mentioned, have been the counters to Axemen since Warlords came out. They also make excellent anti-barb units early in the game. Warriors and Axes both crumble before them, and the stand a good chance of defeating Archers on flat, open terrain.

Horse Archers are probably the most limited-use mounted units and this, I think, tends to lead a lot of players dismissing the entire category of units. They are quite vulnerable to Spearmen and are not an obvious counter to any unit. Nevertheless, those 2 moves come in quite handy sometimes when you want to deal with an enemy unit that's intruding on your territory and making a bee-line to a valuable resource. They can also foray out of a stack to attack a unit and then retreat back within it for protection. I especially like sending HAs against enemy Catapults.

War Elephants only have 1 move but their main advantage is their strength: 8. Of all their contemporary units, only Praetorians match that. War Elephants make excellent stack protectors so your precious City Raider Swordsmen don't end up defending against attacks. You can give them Combat I/Shock to give them better odds versus Spearmen, though I wouldn't go Spear-hunting with them. WEs also eat Archers for breakfast, so they are one of the best mounted units for use in city attacks despite the fact they can't get CR promotions, let alone Cover.

Knights are extremely valuable. They have tremendous strength for their era combined with rapid movement. They are also the only real counter to Crossbowmen, which the AI will spam annoyingly to hinder your Macemen and Pikes. Knights can also mow down Longbowmen (which is not historically realistic, but Civ often isn't).

I'm just getting used to Cuirassiers but I'm finding I quite like them. Their strength means they actually have a pretty good chance of winning a fight against a Pikeman. If you're facing them they can be a problem because they don't have an obvious counter until Riflemen. I find I have to use Pikes or Knights with Combat I/II and Formation against them to have any success, and I usually have to weaken them first with a catapult or two.

The whole point of Cavalry is to get to them before anyone else does, or especially before anyone gets Rifles. In BtS that has become much harder, but Cavalry are still very strong units for their era and can fulfill a lot of the functions of their earlier brethren. They can protect a stack, they can deal with pillagers, they can be moved to trouble areas quickly, and they mow down any and all units from earlier eras. While Rifles are officially their counter, it's a much more even match than any of the earlier era match-ups like Pikemen versus Knights. If you've ever sent a Combat I Rifleman out against a Combat I Cavalry, you know that success is not at all guaranteed.

The main point is to use each unit in Civ appropriately. In many ways the promotions are a clue. Mounted units can't get City Raider promotions. So why do so many players insist on attacking cities with them? That's clearly not what their best at. Yes, melee units are much slower-moving, but they're more effective at city-taking.
 
Ifinnem,
I took a look at your Marco game. The two things I noticed were your path of technology and the civics you were running:

1) The tech path that you chose wasn't going to benifit your immediate situation or play to your strengths. Even without a war, I would have gone for steam and then assembly. I would have researched them before consititution, economics, corporation, astronomy and scientific method. That would allow you to build factories and really pump up the production.

2) You skipped liberalism. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But if you're the first to get it, it will give you a free technology. That can put you miles ahead of the AI.
On vanilla Civ 4, I like to beeline liberalism, as long as I have feudalism (for the longbowmen) and engineering (for the castles). If you choose nationalism as your free tech, then you're only one tech away from cavalry. There's nothing like going up against medival era units with cavalry.

3) I noticed that you're government and worker civics were despotism and vassalage. You had the ability to be running representation and beuraucracy. I think most players would agree that you would want to switch ASAP.

One goal you might want to think about accomplishing is attaining more Synergy. It seems to be the key to success in this game. I heard General Petraeus using the term in his testimony to congress a couple of weeks ago. If you can bring the right ingredients together in a given situation, then the results can far exceed the sum total of those ingredients. Your Marco game shows me that you have a lot of potential. In my opinion, it's not about putting cities on hills and such.

By the way, I don't consider myself to be an expert. I don't know anything about the code of this game. I've only tried Monarch level a couple of times. On vanilla Civ 4, I can consistently win at Prince. In BTS, I'm probably ready to move up to Prince. I look at my cities a lot. I never automate my workers. I try not to click turns too fast. Like you, I enjoy reading these threads and I learn a lot. I usually open myself up to criticism or ridicule when I write something, but I figure I have just as much right to be here as anyone else.:)
 
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