Can we change the Chinese Names over to Wade-Giles
- Thread starter AtlantaMarty
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This article (it doesn't matter whether I agree or disagree with it) doesn't have much to do with this thread. City names in the mod are supposed to be in native languages while article deals with names in English, e.g. mod uses Chinese names for Chinese cities while article discusses English names for Chinese cities.
That's also why it makes more sense (in context of the mod) to use transliteration that is commonly used by the Chinese for Chinese city names, because the names are supposed to be in Chinese, not English. Alternative transliterations, more suited to speakers of English, could be used in case when English-speaking civ controls those cities.
AtlantaMarty
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Because, calling Britain "Großbritannien" while speaking German is no different than saying "Germany" while speaking English, and neither of those is any different than saying "Peking" or "Bombay" while speaking English, regardless of whatever chip ex-colonials may have on their shoulders.
How about using traditional Postal Map romanizations (Peking, Canton, Sian, etc...) when English, Americans, or Canadians own cities in China?
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
I'm dying.Just because you would pronounce it that way doesn't make it the correct pronounciation, lmao.
One of the problems of the article is that it is conflating many different things like this post does, so it's not surprising that you don't get it and agree with it. Translation and transliteration is not the same thing, and it's disingenuous to compare Bombay vs. Mumbai to Germany vs. Deutschland and especially Roma vs. Gypsy.
Casual racism, provincialism and regional chauvinism (see also the wording of your own post) not withstanding, the author is clearly mostly a crybaby who is annoyed that things change and that he has to make a minimal effort to adapt because God help us if we actually care about the implications our use of language has on other people with more significant problems.
Don't misunderstand this post as engaging in discussion with you. This is me saying that your understanding of the subject as well as your motivations make it pointless to discuss this with you.
AtlantaMarty
No longer active
Germany - Deutschland is exactly like Gypsy - Roma.
In both cases the English exonym comes from a different root.
Bombay - Mumbai and Peking - Beijing is more like Austria - Österreich or Cracow - Kraków
In all of those cases, the exonym is merely a different derivation of the root word.
Our English exonyms for places and groups are part of our linguistic heritage, and our Anglo-Saxon culture.
And who exactly benefits from calling the Gulf of Alexandretta the "Ïskenderun körfezi"?
And "Peking" is a more accurate reflection of the Southern Chinese pronunciation, and as Mr. Derbyshire said, Beijing with the wrong tones means background.
There is nothing to be gained for anyone from abandoning the English exonyms that have been part of our language for centuries.
To me, a four legged animal with a tail that is often kept as a pet is called a dog.
To a German, "Hund"
To a Frenchman, "Chien"
To a Hispanic, "Perro"
It would be ridiculous to force all four languages to call it 1 name, just like it is ridiculous for the Indian government to call Bombay "Mumbai". Our word "Bombay" has been around longer than your country.
Being fed up with this political correctness is one of the big reasons that I voted for the brilliant Mr. Donald J. Trump in my state's presidential primary. He is America's Savior.
Hwæt! wē Gār-Dena in ġeār-dagum,
þēod-cyninga, þrym ġefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣġþum, meodosetla oftēah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ǣrest wearð
fēasceaft funden, hē þæs frōfre ġebād,
wēox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þāh,
oðþæt him ǣġhwylc þāra ymbsittendra
ofer hronrāde hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs gōd cyning!
Isn't it great to enjoy our Anglo-Saxon heritage?
þēod-cyninga, þrym ġefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scēfing sceaþena þrēatum,
monegum mǣġþum, meodosetla oftēah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ǣrest wearð
fēasceaft funden, hē þæs frōfre ġebād,
wēox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þāh,
oðþæt him ǣġhwylc þāra ymbsittendra
ofer hronrāde hȳran scolde,
gomban gyldan. Þæt wæs gōd cyning!
Isn't it great to enjoy our Anglo-Saxon heritage?
AtlantaMarty
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Back on Topic: Can we have Chinese cities use Postal Map Romanization when they are controlled by a Western nation?
PS: Without googling it, the text you posted appears to be about a good king (gōd cyning)
PS: Without googling it, the text you posted appears to be about a good king (gōd cyning)
Criticizing people for people for making language political, by being very political with how you criticize Leoreth's choices in naming cities in his mod. #disingenuous
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Just to humor you, Peking doesn't even sound like any Southern dialect, and he's half right in that Beijing with the wrong tones comes out as different words.
That's all the more reason to have tone marks. It precisely helps non-native speakers of Mandarin (which is incidentally the language ALL Chinese speak) learn it.
So you can you know, either be a winner and learn a language, or be a loser and whine about it not sounding like your imaginary cities.
His argument is only about things "sounding right" when convenient. Sometimes it's about "translating" even though that's not the point of transliteration. Sometimes it's just about being able to continue to use a slur. Oh and condescending whitesplaining from the ancient Anglo-Saxon cultural tradition to those newfangled cultures of India and China.
DC123456789
Deity
Not all. Most, but not all.
AtlantaMarty
No longer active
No, my argument is that when there is a longstanding, centuries-old name in English for something, it should not just be swept aside.
And you are assuming I am White, even though I never mentioned my racial heritage on this forum.
India and China have their own words for England, America, London, Washington, etc... Why can't Anglos have their own words for Peking, Canton, Bombay, and Calcutta?
Also, you still have failed to come up with a single person who benefited from any of these thirdworldizations of toponyms.
I mean, who is helped in any real way if "Dacca" is respelled "Dhaka"???
Santa Claus?
The Easter Bunny?
The Tooth Fairy?
Dacca is much better looking than Dhaka (Dh does not exist in English as a digraph, except in compound words, i.e. handheld) It also better fits English spelling and pronunciation patterns, which is a real benefit when trying to maintain a consistent English-language atmosphere.
I see no advantage, and lost of disadvantage, in renaming Trivandrum, "Thiruvananthapuram". I had to look that one up, because the long, cumbersome name is impossible for native Anglos to pronounce or spell correctly. Trivandrum is sophisticated and eloquent, "Thiruvananthapuram" sounds and looks like a trainwreck.
How would you like it if I was called "Bobby Martananeneinieninnyen"?
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
windman
Chieftain
Wade-Giles was established in 'Chinese English Dictionary' in 1912. If you have to trace back, Wade's book 'The Hsin Ching Lu or Book of Experiments:being the First of a Series of Contribution to the Study of Chinese' was in 1859, which would be the earliest book on Wade system.
Pinyin is the standard and official way to spell the Chinese city names since 1958. Use math and you know it is not centuries-old name. Sorry, it is at most 99 years.
If you want to propose Wade system in this game, I was assuming you would have much better knowledge on this than most of us. However,
(I just realized some of my points have already been raised by Hightower. Sorry to pick them up again. And that is why I am more curious why the middle-class white (successfully guessed) is still not convinced.)
To reiterate:
1) Translations and transliterations are not the same thing.
2) Civilizations use names in their own language, using the generally preferred rendering of that language in the Roman alphabet. Interestingly that means that e.g. England will use Calcutta, Bombay whatever etc. already so I don't really get what this is about.
3) Japanese cannot be rendered as pure Hepburn because of character set constraints, so Wapuro Romaji is used instead (which is basically Hepburn minus diacritics).
4) Chinese uses Pinyin, it's preferred both by Chinese and the majority of the Anglosphere to render Chinese names in English.
5) Russian transliterations are indeed awful and inconsistent and should be fixed.
Moderator Action: End of thread.
1) Translations and transliterations are not the same thing.
2) Civilizations use names in their own language, using the generally preferred rendering of that language in the Roman alphabet. Interestingly that means that e.g. England will use Calcutta, Bombay whatever etc. already so I don't really get what this is about.
3) Japanese cannot be rendered as pure Hepburn because of character set constraints, so Wapuro Romaji is used instead (which is basically Hepburn minus diacritics).
4) Chinese uses Pinyin, it's preferred both by Chinese and the majority of the Anglosphere to render Chinese names in English.
5) Russian transliterations are indeed awful and inconsistent and should be fixed.
Moderator Action: End of thread.
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