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Can we expect changes?

Originally posted by ainwood
Reading through, there is quite a bit of "I like them' or 'I don't like them', but not a lot as to what aspects people like or don't like. Can those strongly in either camp flesh a bit more detail on this? Are their some aspects that you like and others you don't? Is it just the new units & graphics, or is it the resources? The naval movement? The different abilities? The designed maps rather than random ones? The lack of goody huts near the start location on some maps? The map design that makes RCP 'more challenging'?


OK

Love the effort that goes into the maps. A fair start is great (I don't expect too have too much bonus resources around every time though) but it's the well-crafted terrain with the position of the other civs that I appreciate most. I can play a random map anytime I like but these maps are something else.

Not too bothered about the new luxuries (fairer if they replace another regular one to maintain the game balance?) but the occasional food bonus to create an oasis in the desert was a nice touch.

New graphics for existing units add to the atmosphere when playing the game as do the other cosmetic additions such as the latin names for city improvements when playing Rome or the regional names for the Spanish game. It brought a smile to my face without affecting gameplay (but maybe simple things please simple minds!;) )

I'm not so sure about the fog, volcano, squid, etc. They were very interesting when encountered for the first time but once the surprise is over they often become just a minor inconvenience.

Some new units and differential naval movement I'm not so sure about. In this respect I agree with Matrix in that they can alter game balance.

However, having stated my preferences on these features I'll take the parts that I don't like with the bits I love every time if it gives me a uniquely enjoyable game and the GOTM staff have succeeded every time since I found this site and gave GOTM 16 a try. I'm sure that you'll build on the strengths of the existing set-up and add your own flavour to what's been developed so far, ainwood. Best of luck to you!:)

ps QSC is a must IMO. The chance to see other peoples attempts up to 1000BC whilst the game is still fresh enough in my mind would be my top priority. Not so worried about the publication of the final results (it's the actual game I enjoy) though maybe that's just because I'm yet to break into the top 50!:D
 
Originally posted by denyd
GOTQ: Add a new Game of the Quarter. This would be for the people with extra time or for those with only time for 1 game a quarter. Use large/huge maps with 16+ opponents. No targeted victory condition. Use a similar scoring method as GOTM without the victory date component to give those who enjoy milking a target. Modifications would be optional (without modifications, these could be High Score Hall of Fame candidates).

That's a great idea! :goodjob: May be the Game of the Year too?;)
 
At first I didn't play the GotM because I didn't like the scoring system (never been a milker).

Then the tournament started, fuelled (IIRC) from a thread with Beammeuppy, Aeson and GreyFox. They used a scoring system weighted much more towards time rather than score. I was comfortable playing for speed, as that was the kind of game I enjoyed.

Relatively recently Aeson completely rethought the scoring and came up with the Jason system. This was a good system, and I started my first GotM just after cracker took over. This was at the beginning of the 'modded' movement - there were downloads and the game wasn't what I expected it to be. Since then I haven't wanted to play, and this was partly because of the huge modding done to the game. (I have to admit this was not the only reason for not playing, but it was one of them).

Now I see the chance that the GotM may evolve again, and I am very hopeful that something will emerge that I again want to take part in.

Please note my ramble above is subject to the usual errors of memory (and maybe a few more ;)). Here are my (very) subjective thoughts:

QSC
I really liked the QSC and I would very much like it to stay - I thought this was a very good part of the GotM. I think there needs to be more discussion of the scoring and the reasons behind it - discussion of this has been somewhat limited (I may be wrong here, but it didn't seem like I could post about it before).

Time Problems
I take a long time micro-managing my empire and I can't play it for more than an hour or two a day, so I think a game with a 6 week period would be much better. You can overlap 2 weeks in to the next month - that way I could still submit once every 2 months. I also like the idea of a "Game of the Quarter" - another chance for a slow player like me to join in. :)

Mods
I like playing mods! They are fun and make a nice change. Change however is the operative word. A modded GotM should not be the norm, but at the very least the mods should be different in each new game. If you play with the same mods every month you move away from the "core" game more and more. If the GotM stays heavily modded every game I doubt I will join in.

Conquests
I can't see the changes in C3C being replicated in any way in PTW/Civ3 - they are just too different to allow it (like new traits). It is a tough decision, but I can't imagine going back to PTW now, and I would think most people with C3C think the same. Maybe running 2 games could be possible, but comparing the scoring between them would be impossible.
 
Originally posted by anarres

Conquests
I can't see the changes in C3C being replicated in any way in PTW/Civ3 - they are just too different to allow it (like new traits). It is a tough decision, but I can't imagine going back to PTW now, and I would think most people with C3C think the same. Maybe running 2 games could be possible, but comparing the scoring between them would be impossible.

I agree with anarres on this, once I got C3C I quit playing PTW and the GotM. I really love the GotM and all the mods but the changes in C3C were very close to what I wanted in Civ3 in the first place (corruption bugs not included) so there is no going back for me. I'll return to GotM when or if it includes C3C.
 
Originally posted by TedJackson
I believe C3C is less suited to comparative gameplay than Civ/PTW due to the addition of more random factors to the base game. Scientific GLs, Volcanos and the Statue of Zeus' dependence on Ivory to name some of the more obvious culprits.


Why is Ivory a "random factor"? The GOTM designer can choose where to put Ivory on the map. The designer can also choose where to put Volcanos, right? I think Scientific Leaders can be turned off.

Personally, I'm fine with plenty of random variation. But even if you aren't, I don't think it's an inevitable consequence of playing in C3C.
 
@DaviddesJ

You miss the point or I expressed it badly. The mere presence of Volcanos on a map will churn the RNG for every Volcano every turn. This will lead to the divergence I spoke of.


Ted
 
Originally posted by TedJackson
You miss the point or I expressed it badly. The mere presence of Volcanos on a map will churn the RNG for every Volcano every turn. This will lead to the divergence I spoke of.

Well, you could easily just not put volcanoes on the map.

But I personally don't think trying to keep the random number generator in sync, among different players, is important. I think diversity of random outcomes is fine; it's interesting to see how different games can diverge a bit. I also think this is good, not bad, for somewhat "less skilled" players, as they have more chance to "get lucky" relative to the "more skilled" players. Just IMHO, of course.
 
Originally posted by DaviddesJ
...
I think diversity of random outcomes is fine
...
I don't think Ted was worried about the game in general, only the QSC portion.

In his earlier post he wrote :
Originally posted by TedJackson
This would devalue the "Play along with SirPleb" learning process for newcomers/improvers even further as the games will diverge faster and further than they do with the current version of PTW.

He is referring to how possible it is to repeat another person's QSC by following the turns in their timeline. The more the game's diverge due to the RNG the harder this is to do.
 
I like anarres idea of having six weeks to complete a GOTM, despite the delay to publishing the scores. If I had six weeks to complete it then I could play again. A GOTM takes me roughly 40 hours of gameplay, and if I play GOTM I can't play SG's, or do anything in what I laughingly refer to as my RL. Even 5 weeks would help a lot.

my 2 groats.
 
I just wanted to echoe something that I read in some earlier posts. The main page on gotm should be updated more often. Even if it is just to update the date where it says last updated.

When I 1st came to CFC, I was looking for the GOTM to play and compare my results to others and also to improve my game.
I arrived in February 2003 and it said last updated in December of 2002. only 3 months had passed.
Now it still says December 2002 which is 1 year, If it were like this when I had showed up, It might have turned me off and I might have just went away unsatisfied. And I am afraid that may be what could be happening to newcomers ATM.

Also I had read something that I think SirPleb had said about updating the Pantheon of Heroes, this would also be good on a regular basis.

The Mods are really cool and when playing them I really like the different names and Like the roman one that was latin, this makes ya think about what your doing and I like that.

I played the Korean gotm24(I think) and I did not finish or submit, but the reason I played any of it at all was to check out the new units, they were soo cool looking.

I also like the new resourses, especially when it makes Oasis in deserts. I liked the fog and squid the 1st time I saw them but later just got annoyed by them.
I do like the volcanoes, especially if you get something out of them when you defeat them, prizes if you will.

I also truly believe that the maps should never be randomly generated, that someone should make the maps for each gotm, just like it has been for awhile.

Those are my thoughts, Thanks for letting us talk about this Ainwood and Goodluck to you!:goodjob:
 
Originally posted by mad-bax
I like anarres idea of having six weeks to complete a GOTM, despite the delay to publishing the scores.
Actually I proposed that > here < :)


Ted
 
Indeed Ted - your post was one of the ones that made me think it was worth adding to this thread (also as a potential 'newcomer' to the GotM).
 
anarres,

my post was just a friendly dig in the ribs for mad-bax not a proprietorial stance so no worries :)

I started playing with GotM 16 but haven't been able to finish & submit since 19. I've made up for it somewhat by taking part in the SG replays (23 & 24) but I would like to get back into the real thing.

I'm making an effort with 26 as we've got an extra week although Christmas & New Year will wipe that out.


Ted
 
denyd: I also like the idea of a GOTQ! I submitted an idea for GOTQ back in Mar of 2002 in this thread , but the response was ... less than enthusiastic. Perhaps now is a better time to suggest the idea. More on this later.

One issue is that of the player who barely has time to finish the month's game. I reviewed the submission list site for GOTM for the last few months, and it appears that as much as 20% of the submittals happen on the last day of the month. And another 10%, or so, are submitted on the 2nd to last day of the month. I have to believe that just as many players either do not submit or do not participate because of the month end limitation. And (being a player who routinely submits on the last day) the quality of that late submitted game degrades rapidly as the deadline approaches because the player is trying everything just to finish. It would be greatly appreciated to get some relief in this area. Several suggestions to extend the submission deadline have been made, any of which would be great IMO, and I'd suggest a GOTQ would provide another avenue for these late submitting players to participate in a less stressed manner, and it would provide an additional game opportunity for the quick player who submits in the first week of the month.

Another issue is that of mods. I've enjoyed them greatly, and I feel that my game experience has been more rich because of them. I understand the issue of the new player being turned off, and of other players having to 'relearn' basic out-of-the-box civ3 to play other games. I wanted to point out that part of the reason all these mods were introduced was to goad players (especially NEW players) into learning to use the Civilapedia, which is a great learning tool that many players overlook and fail to use. This was in line with the desire to make GOTM an educational experience for new players as well as a competition for all. I think GOTM should be a unique gaming experience, and the mods are an integral part of this. After all, anyone can play out-of-the-box, and any group of players can share an unmodded game and compare results; GOTM should be a step or two beyond that. If this is a significant issue, the GOTQ (if adopted) could be the highly prepared for, moderately modded game, the GOTM could be a slightly modded (including map) game and the MedalSeries only games could be the unmodded, random map game. Players would have their choice of which to participate in.

So ... back to GOTQ. This could be a way to prepare a highly modded, seasonal game, allow for Larger Maps with more Rivals, and provide an avenue for time-crunched players to participate more fully (including current-moderators ex-GOTMer's ;) ).

MedalPlay vs GOTM? I liked the defined victory condition. The fact that a large number of players submitted games of the same victory type allowed for a large base of comparison, and it lead some players to pursue victory types they had never done before. (Part of the 'educational' side of GOTM.) I also understand the turnoff. Perhaps the victories can be grouped into 3 types: the Conquest/Domination type (focusing on combat), the Spaceship/Diplomacy type (focusing on research), and the Cultural 20K/100k. Rather than say a player has to submit a certain victory type for each game (3 best count), say that the player has to submit at least 1 game from each Victory type, and the best submittal from each Victory type counts towards a final score. This would give full freedom to each player to play for the victory they feel will give the best score in a given game, and still support a wide range of victory types being submitted. And this would still allow the GOTM's to do double-duty as MedalSeries games without requiring a specific victory condition for each month's game.

Scoring: Jason is a vast improvement, but it still greatly rewards players who play a certain way, especially as the game year get's later. I also believe that gaining the Pyramids (for many games) is crucial to scoring high; if so, than this also forces players who play for score to do things a certain way, and introduces the placement of the Pyramids as a critical element of the final game score. I know that a player who launches a spaceship and controls 66.5% of the landmass and 99.99% of the population has done more and maybe deserves to be called a 'better' player than one who simply launches their spaceship; I'm just concerned about being forced to consider playing that way if I want to play for a high score.

QSC: a crucial element of the educational value of GOTM, and a great way to increase the competition. I hope it can be retained.

There's a bit more, but this is already a long post. I apoligize in advance for rambling.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve
One issue is that of the player who barely has time to finish the month's game. I reviewed the submission list site for GOTM for the last few months, and it appears that as much as 20% of the submittals happen on the last day of the month. And another 10%, or so, are submitted on the 2nd to last day of the month. I have to believe that just as many players either do not submit or do not participate because of the month end limitation. And (being a player who routinely submits on the last day) the quality of that late submitted game degrades rapidly as the deadline approaches because the player is trying everything just to finish. It would be greatly appreciated to get some relief in this area. Several suggestions to extend the submission deadline have been made, any of which would be great IMO, and I'd suggest a GOTQ would provide another avenue for these late submitting players to participate in a less stressed manner, and it would provide an additional game opportunity for the quick player who submits in the first week of the month.
I agree. There will always be a rush at the end, but I think more time would help. I know that the last couple games I submitted caused me to do some marathon sessions right before the end of the month.

Originally posted by civ_steve
Scoring: Jason is a vast improvement, but it still greatly rewards players who play a certain way, especially as the game year get's later. I also believe that gaining the Pyramids (for many games) is crucial to scoring high; if so, than this also forces players who play for score to do things a certain way, and introduces the placement of the Pyramids as a critical element of the final game score. I know that a player who launches a spaceship and controls 66.5% of the landmass and 99.99% of the population has done more and maybe deserves to be called a 'better' player than one who simply launches their spaceship; I'm just concerned about being forced to consider playing that way if I want to play for a high score.
I feel the same way about the scoring system, but have not been able to articulate it as well as you just did. That is a major reason that I personally would like to see more of a scoring bonus for beating the "best dates". This would make it so there is less emphasis on pure territory, and more on hitting a goal quickly.
 
Another suggestion: setup an Library sub-forum in this forum. The Library sub-forum would have sub-forums for each of the past GOTMs, which would contain the Announcement thread, pre-discussion threads, Spoiler threads and final Results threads, along with any threads dealing with difficulties installing or playing that particular game. This way anyone could quickly find any discussions for a given Game, along with any problems encountered and solutions obtained in playing it. There should also be a sub-forum with any general information threads that discuss the added Resources, differential Naval Movement, Mongol UU capabilities, other mods, etc., for easy reference.
 
Originally posted by ainwood

Reading through, there is quite a bit of "I like them' or 'I don't like them', but not a lot as to what aspects people like or don't like. Can those strongly in either camp flesh a bit more detail on this? Are their some aspects that you like and others you don't? Is it just the new units & graphics, or is it the resources? The naval movement? The different abilities? The designed maps rather than random ones? The lack of goody huts near the start location on some maps? The map design that makes RCP 'more challenging'?


I'll cast a quick vote. My favorite mod to date was the unit replacements in the Korea GOTM. Those units were very nicely done and animated (wish they all had sounds though) and really added to the overall experience. I think there is a clear example of an 'optional' mod. However, along the same lines, I never liked the Azap infantry from earlier GOTMs. I feel they lacked the quality, and thus they detracted from the game rather than enhancing it.

This is a really tough issue to solve. Some are firmly against it, others are clearly bored with anything BUT modded games. I really don't see anyway to make both camps happy month after month and NOT split the community up. Past polls showed that more people preferred the mods..but maybe that was swayed because most of those who voted were actually playing the current, modded, GOTM voted?

To date, I have not seen anybody object to not continuing the use of the same mods month to month...so at least a change there is warrented.
 
Civ_Steve: Great idea, I would be whole-heartedly in favor of that. It would make things much easier to find/follow, as a couple of times I have tried to go back and replay GOTMS I missed, but it is hard to find all the discussions.
 
Originally posted by civ_steve
setup an Library sub-forum in this forum.
Good idea... but perhaps call it "Archives" :)


Ted
 
An outsiders point of view.

I participated in the old tourney that finished up early this year, when it got amalgamated with this forum I intended to play here as well but was put out by a couple of things so I didn't bother.

Some of the things that I wasn't keen on was that on dial up, IIRC, the save files were a bit large (over 1Mb, memory not what it should be), which cut into to my then more limited time to play as I was studying as well as working full time. (More my problem then GOTM's).

I didn't find the way that the forum was set up, easy to follow. Perhaps it could be made more Noob friendly?

I would be in favour of a return to more un-modded games which kept it simple for dial up users like me.
 
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