Can we expect changes?

Originally posted by TedJackson
Good idea... but perhaps call it "Archives" :)


Ted

Thanks Ted, and JustusII. Actually, I first typed in "... setup an Archives sub-forum ...", then changed it to Library when I thought of putting in threads discussing mods which might be active in the current game (hence the 'an', which I forgot to change :) ) Under either name, I'm sure more organization to the Forum's data will be a benefit.
 
As a newbie to GOTM, having only played GOTM 25 and just missing the submission date, I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion.

First on time alloyed until submission. If you allow more time for the submission of games, you either need to have less than a GOTM every month, or the extra time is wasted unless participants are going to elect to play only every second GOTM. It also wouldn't surprise me if the percentage of rushed games submitted on the last day or second to last date of the lengthened submission time remained virtually the same, as it is human nature to adapt to the time available. Furthermore, a longer submission time will mean greater delays in publishing results and feedback, even through the timing of spoilers etc. So even though I missed my first submission date, I don't see there as being enough pros to outweigh the cons.

On the modded vs unmodded discussion, I personally found the Mongol UUs to be one of the attractions to make the leap into GOTM, even though I had to load up 4 (from memory) previous GOTMs in order to be able to play. It helped that I have ADSL broadband, so I did not mind overly in doing this. However, it was clear to me that some of the mods really were irrelevant to this game, like the differential naval movement. I didn't even build a single ship in this game, and I assume that wasn't uncommon, as I don't recall anyone else discussing naval affairs either. I suspect the only reason it was included was because it was the easiest way to pick up the other mods contained in that GOTM, that the designers wished to include in GOTM 25.

So I am in favour of mods, but against requiring a whole series of previous GOTMs mods. Ideally each GOTM should be totally self contained as one download with an easy revert to vanilla Civ at game conclusion. I haven't tried this reversion yet, but it sounds like some people have had issues in the past particularly with the new resources.

Now looking at the specific mods that I have encountered:
Resources - the bonus resources were good and added variety to the map. On the other hand, I agree that additional luxury resources simply diminish the challenge to ensure contented citizens, and reduce the need to trade luxes, and so should be avoided.

Units - There seemed to be a mix of flavour units and truly different units in the Mongol game. As mentioned above, part of the attraction to GOTM 25 were the truly different Mongol UUs. As for the flavour units, they were quite nice as part of the overall theme of the game, but the truly different units were much more interesting. Did anyone play GOTM 25 and not use the special UUs?

Others - I didn't have to face volcanoes or fog, and probably agree that that was a good thing. Volcanoes seem to add an unnecessary element of luck to me. Differential navy movement was in my GOTM, but really played no part in it, and so should not have been there.

In general, it seems to me that if anything needs "fixing" it is the speed of getting the results posted. So I would vote to improve this at the expense of mods or additional games (eg GOTQ) in the future.

A more heavily modded and larger GOTQ seems like an interesting idea, if the GOTM team have the time. Not the highest priority though. Would everyone play the GOTQ to the exclusion of the GOTM????

My one experience has been invauable in highlighting some areas I can improve on due to this format of everyone playing the same game. SO as long as this aspect contiues I will continue with GOTM whther modded or not. Keep up the good work.

Just my 2c worth.
 
I don't know if it is worth it, but it might be a good idea to open a set of polls on these subjects.

It seems like most people have opinions, It might be nice to have a nice "count" of how many people think each thing.
 
Originally posted by Matrix
The whole website changed and the mods were added.

Can we expect changes?

I hope that discussion on the GOTM threads will loosen up considerably. I liked a little of topic discussion from time to time. Can we expect changes to the GOTM Forum Rules?

Downloading the mods turned into a big hassle for me. I hope that GOTM will provide a single download and install in order to play. Can we expect a simpler install of un-modded games?
 
I'm one of the group that tries to play GOTM evey month, but unfortunately, RL has a habit of getting in the way of finishing in time.

Thing is, I really don't care. I'm having a blast playing the game.
Each month I download...each month I get creamed, but I'm getting better at the game and I'm having fun. I don't care about my ranking, I just love playing the games.

There are some interesting ideas being put forth and here are my thoughts...

I love the modifications. Each month there has been something new added and it's been a real challenge to try and deal with it.

I don't care about the size of the downloads. I'm on a 28.8 dial-up and yes it takes a while, but patience IS a virtue. In years past I had to deal with dial-ups at less than half that speed, transmitting files two, three and four times the size of the mods. And this was for work and deadlines were involved!

The one thing I would like to see is some organization to information regarding installation of the mods. The Library thread seems to make a lot of sense to get all of the procedures in one place.

Everyone needs to keep in mind is that the moderators are all volunteer...we are paying NOTHING and getting a really fine product.

Whatever form Ainwood and the gang decided to pursue is fine with me. I'll be there to enjoy and appreciate their efforts
 
After a week of excellent ideas and topical discussion, what's the verdict on the future of the GOTM?

One level or multi-level difficulties?

Straight from the box, minor modifications or heavy mods?

Games due on EOM or extra time to play?

Add a new GOTQ or GOTY, with heavy or no mods?

Update the All time leader board or throw it away?

Vanilla, PTW or C3C or all three?

Mix Medal Play (tournament) and GOTM or split them up?

QSC will continue or is going away?

Same scoring system or something new?

New GOTM Archives or keep it a single thread?

Nominate Cracker for sainthood or send him to hell?


My choices: Support PTW & Vanilla until C3C patches major problems, then move to Vanilla & C3C, multiple levels, minor mods for GOTM, straight from the box for Medal Play and Heavy mods for GOQ, keep QSC, add new scoring system to allow unfinished games to be submitted, allow til 7th of month for completion, add GOTM monthly library sub-forum, update the main GOTM page and finally let Cracker go with :goodjob: and wish him the best.

And in lieu of answers to all of these, what's the plan for January??
 
IMHO

The administrators are doing a great job to put all of these contest together,but (there always has to be a but) I am having a hard time keeping up with all of the new UU's. By the time I figure out the best way to use these guys, it's too late. The AI have moved on and the advantage is lost.
 
Garvarg, I think you're in the clear. The only truly new UUs are those of the Mongols, and the odds are very high that they will never again be in human hands.
 
I had an idea that might help the GOTM staff, and players, regarding the QSC. Based on all the comments, obviously the QSC is a very popular component of the GOTM, and certainly one of my favorites, but it also entails a lot of overhead in scoring/evaluating etc. While I think the scoring, and including them in the overall GOTM rankings, is a good idea, the biggest benefit for most people is the comparisons and analysis between other people's games and timelines. Scoring is still important here, to give you a feel for what areas you may be lacking in, or improved in.

So, my idea was to enable the players to score their own QSCs, and begin some preliminary analysis/discussion, while the games are still somewhat fresh in everyone's mind. Then the staff can do the comprehensive roll-ups and summaries when they are caught up with everything else. Basically, establish a thread for each QSC (i.e. one for GOTM 23, GOTM24, etc). In the first post, include the Excel QSC scoresheet (I have seen it before, I still have a copy at my home computer). There are some slight adjustments per game, based on cost of UU, tech cost factors, etc., but posting the blank spreadsheet should take minimal time. Then, everyone who is interested, and has submitted the QSC, could download it, fill in their data from the 1000BC save, and post their scores, breakdowns within the major categories, maybe even a snapshot of the whole scoresheet, as well as a link to their timeline and save. As the posts accumulate, let the players initiate their own discussion/analysis, guided if needed by moderators. Since the games are completed, there is no danger of more spoiler info.

Obviously self-scoring would rely on the honor system, but since this is just for "internal" discussion, and not the GOTM score, there would be no incentive to cheat. Also, the actual save would have already been submitted to be scored later, so any inaccuracies would be eventually rectified. But at least the discussion and comparisons can begin, without hopefully adding too much burden on the staff.

BTW, If it were easy to just post links to all the saves/timelines, on a QSC page, and link to it from the first post, that would save a lot of extra posting, but if it is too much work for now, let the players do their own. It is always good to learn by doing, and posting/linking/uploading files etc. is no exception. GOTM, and Cracker, has certainly "encouraged" me to be a more proficient poster over the past year! For those that don't want to put forth the effort, they are still welcome to read the timelines/see the scoresheets of others, and hopefully learn lessons that will improve their game. I know I have learned tremendously from the QSC, but still have much to learn! I also think there were situations in the past few GOTMs that would be good learning experiences, and I am afraid that if we wait for a truly comprehenisve QSC system to be implemented, it may not seem worth the effort to go back and include all of the past games. This way, they will still have their chance to be discussed.

Just my suggestion, like I said I hope this would make less work for the staff, not more. ;)
 
Good suggestion, Justus, however we are automating the QSC scoring. It became far to weildy to open eveyone's save and count up the points. However we now have a program that extracts the scores. Its not in a great form, and needs some debugging, but we are getting there.

And Aeson and AlanH are working behind the scenes on the submission details, and the ultimate goal is to get the scores extracted at submission time. :)
 
Originally posted by Txurce
The only truly new UUs are those of the Mongols, and the odds are very high that they will never again be in human hands.
I hope you're wrong. I think that would be very sad :(
 
Alan, I hope I'm wrong, too. But what are the odds of ainwood using the Mongol mod down the line? With as many civs as we have (and more coming) it's hard to imagine the Mongols being revisited - never mind after C3C!
 
Well, Cracker did once suggest that w/he would release the GOTM mods to be used for random games. Maybe we should honour that proposal, then I'd at least get the chance to play with those beautiful hordes again. Are there any copyright issues?
 
That would be terrific - I might even play a non-GOTM/MPS game under those circumstances! Let's go in the clubhouse and ask him!
 
What about having a cheat league? On GOTM 22 for instance I had an unintended Palace jump after the English took one of my cities dropping the price of the palace and causing it to jump ruining my RCP. Also being an individual of weak will and poor character it caused me to say "screw that" and reload. This of course meant that I couldn't submit my game.
I think given the increasingly competition in the GOTM many players will be faced with a decision whether to play on legitimately or to throw a game and reload after a very negative outcome on a turn. Neither option offers much in the the way of player enjoyment - if you play on legitmately then you find yourself grumbling about everything the AI does for the rest of the game, if you cheat then you eventually come to the conclusion that the game isn't worth playing as you can't submit it anyway. Having a cheat option might be fun allowing players who have cheated to compare games to see who cheated the most outrageously and might lead to some interesting discussions.
The honour system is a fine system but I think we need an added option for players who have screwed up their games so that they can contribute to discussions and not be allowed to become pissed off and drift away from the GOTM - it may also speed the rate of player development as well.
 
Originally posted by samildanach
I think given the increasingly competition in the GOTM many players will be faced with a decision whether to play on legitimately or to throw a game and reload after a very negative outcome on a turn.

Why do you think that the GOTM is, or will be, increasingly "competitive"? I hope that's not really true, and I also doubt it will be.

If there's a feeling that one can't play or enjoy the GOTM without having to be "competitive", then I think that's the problem to be addressed.
 
It may just be me who is becoming increasingly competitive and just me who is becoming increasingly frustrated by my brain farts which are ruining otherwise well played games. For instance I miscalculated the upgrade cost from chariots to mounted warriors in a recent game which resulted in me losing something in the region of 2000 pre- AD combat turns. I of course realised my mistake as soon as I had done it - but it meant playing out a game that I had lost a lot of interest in. I would have liked the option of playing the game I wanted to play, of course it shouldn't be compared to the players who have played legitimately but to the games of other players who have chosen to bail out.
I may be the only player who has had this sort of experience but I doubt it - I would guess that there have been players who have had similar play experiences and thought to themselves that the GOTM wasn't a great deal of fun and not stuck around. The key element in the GOTM should be fun, the GOTM ceases to be fun for me at least when I am left playing out a game in which I have made a key error.
 
I think that discussions of strategies from players who might not contribute anything if their game has been a disaster might make for a useful learning tool. Such as which upgrade strat worked best on a particular map (warrior-swordsman or chariot-horseman etc) and also helping players to learn about target prioritsation (which enemy civ to go for first and in which order take the rest of them) to get the max benefit from available combat turns. Of course this is probably anathema to the traditional GOTM way of doing things but I think discussions from players who have reloaded at some point and tried different things could be informative and IMO there isn't enough strategy discussion as it is and this needs to be improved. What we get at the moment is alot of reports along the lines of - 11 cities at the end of the QSC, I then conquered the green guys,the blue guys etc and I wrapped it up in 500 BC with a conquest victory- which doesn't tell one a great deal.
 
Originally posted by samildanach
I think that discussions of strategies from players who might not contribute anything if their game has been a disaster might make for a useful learning tool. Such as which upgrade strat worked best on a particular map (warrior-swordsman or chariot-horseman etc) and also helping players to learn about target prioritsation (which enemy civ to go for first and in which order take the rest of them) to get the max benefit from available combat turns. Of course this is probably anathema to the traditional GOTM way of doing things but I think discussions from players who have reloaded at some point and tried different things could be informative...

I see the value of sustaining a dialogue with players who have dropped out for any reason, or for that matter, playing the game again. Their strategies aren't completely applicable to anyone playing without reloading, but could still have something of value, even if the context is blurred. The problem in implementing this lies in keeping the differences clear, and possibly in the implicit devaluing of an unreloaded game by the legitimizing of a reloaded one. I don't know how to get around this, other than with a cumbersome and possibly confusing second thread.

...IMO there isn't enough strategy discussion as it is and this needs to be improved. What we get at the moment is alot of reports along the lines of - 11 cities at the end of the QSC, I then conquered the green guys,the blue guys etc and I wrapped it up in 500 BC with a conquest victory- which doesn't tell one a great deal.

This point applies regardless of reloading. There's very little strategy discussion, period. I notice it even more in the lack of responses to a post, than in the original post itself. Very few players ask another player why they did something.
 
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