Can you disable assassins and other hidden nationality units?

[lte7]

I've been playing the latest version and these units are starting to get on my nerves. It seems the AI has nothing better to do than sending waves and waves of these units into my territory even though they should have better things to do. And these are nations that are pretty much my allies so it makes it even more stupid to see them capture my workers and warlord chiefs and just bring them to their territory. I don't remember this happening when playing on the older versions of the game (playing v26) and it seems the AI is playing worse than before as well (seriously lagging behind in research and getting a lot of revolts) even though difficulty is set to deity.

I tried looking for option to disable them in the mod options but no luck. Is there a way to disable them manually by editing the files in the mod directory?

 

[LumenAngel]

That happend v21 and 22 and stop after with a bug with Crime building.
And i m the first to send thieves and warlord for my allies as "a gift" ^^

AI are behind in science is because of bad hunting. Early game, Myth building are really important and AI dont hunt enough.

 

[Koshling]

That happend v21 and 22 and stop after with a bug with Crime building.
And i m the first to send thieves and warlord for my allies as "a gift" ^^

AI are behind in science is because of bad hunting. Early game, Myth building are really important and AI dont hunt enough.

Actually in V26 it hunts much, much better. I suspect the issue is something in the new civics interacting badly with the AIs handling of REV and causing it to revolt too much.

On the original subject - I intend to change things so that the AI absolutely does NOT go after it vassal/vassal-lord with hidden units, and while I'm at it I'll probably see what I can do about reducing the weighting of doing it generally based upon the AI in question's attitude towards the owner of a potential target (i.e. - it'll be much less likely against an ally and much more likely against someone it is antagonistic towards)

I don't have a strong opinion on disabling by option, apart from a general bias against optional mechanisms because we can only try to tune the AI for a limited set (so if I did add such an option I would give a low priority to any tuning issues that arose while I was selected that related to it).

If there is a consensus that such an option is desired however (and subject to my point above about it not getting much love from a tuning perspective) it can fairly easily be added.

 

[lte7]

Also should I mention the assassins aren't very nicely balanced either:

And these are the promotions the AI creates those things with. Almost nothing I can make at this period can stand a chance against them, and I can't block them from entering my territories either, even with dogs I always have to kill them by attacking (else they just walk by my defenses) which always leads me into having to sacrifice one or more unit. It's really stupid you can make units like these when the regular 'army' type units have 5-7 strength. And they do receive defensive bonuses from terrain as well.

 

[Mouthwash]

Can you see hidden units if they're on your territory? Or do you need dogs?

 

[JosEPh_II]

If you can make assassins use them as counters. Build up their melee and combat promos. Hero units with Multiple attack and added combat/melee promos work too.

Sounds like you are using the dog units to spot which is good.

Part of the mod I'm afraid and sounds like you're being challenged. You'll eventually overcome it. I've been experiencing similar situations too. Just takes some trial and error attempts to get a handle on it.

@Koshling,
I vote for no option. The vassal thing is fine and I agree.

But the other part I'm not sure about (targeting those the AI is annoyed with over allies). Reason is the AI still has a bias against the Human player. And instead of seeking targets of opportunity among other AI it will flood the human player. As it still does now with war declarations. And the AI still beelines to the human player territory to build border cities even from across the continent/map. Will tons of empty territory is available in the direction of other AI Civs.

My 2

JosEPh

 

[LumenAngel]

Also should I mention the assassins aren't very nicely balanced either:
And these are the promotions the AI creates those things with. Almost nothing I can make at this period can stand a chance against them, and I can't block them from entering my territories either, even with dogs I always have to kill them by attacking (else they just walk by my defenses) which always leads me into having to sacrifice one or more unit. It's really stupid you can make units like these when the regular 'army' type units have 5-7 strength. And they do receive defensive bonuses from terrain as well.

Dont forget : if they have an assassin, they must have at least 1 assasin den. So +10/crime and +10 revo in this city.
Against them, I often use a siege units (they dont have bonus against siege unit) thnen another units to finish them, or just a pack of expendable dogs.

 

[TowerWizard]

I must say that I agree with the OP that this sort of attack should be toned down. There would be several ways to do this: increase dog's spot range from 1 tile to 2 tiles. This means that you need less dogs to find the assassins, and they can be spotted from further away. Increase the dog's attac snd defence agaonst hidden combat units (these ubits rely on not being detected, after all. A third way would be to increade the cost of maimtaining these units. A fourth to make them national units, so less can be made. Or, simply remove the difference between hidden units and spies, and use the espionage system.

The problems these units presents is so severe that you either needs to station dogs and blockers all along your borders and in every city, or simply kill every nearby AI, unless you like being caught with your pants down. All those units cost alot of maintainance, so the AI is probably winning in the long run.

 

[LumenAngel]

If you think so, do it too : thief can see thief, assassins can see assasins, too

 

[Thunderbrd]

I must say that I agree with the OP that this sort of attack should be toned down. There would be several ways to do this: increase dog's spot range from 1 tile to 2 tiles. This means that you need less dogs to find the assassins, and they can be spotted from further away. Increase the dog's attac snd defence agaonst hidden combat units (these ubits rely on not being detected, after all. A third way would be to increade the cost of maimtaining these units. A fourth to make them national units, so less can be made. Or, simply remove the difference between hidden units and spies, and use the espionage system.

The problems these units presents is so severe that you either needs to station dogs and blockers all along your borders and in every city, or simply kill every nearby AI, unless you like being caught with your pants down. All those units cost alot of maintainance, so the AI is probably winning in the long run.

Dogs detect on sound and smell... one range seems appropriate but an extendability from a promo would be nice.

And these units are national units with a limit of 3. You must be playing with unlimited national units option no? It's a bit of a pandora's box that one.

I'd prefer to increase the hidden unit's strength against units that don't see them instead. Then they can be toned down a touch.

Again, another way to pull them back a bit is to consider them a singular individual and thus penalize them against units that represent organized military groups. But this proposal was countered.

 

[ls612]

No, you can not disable them, the aren't modular. If you are having issues with them I suggest building lots of dogs to find them, and then killing them with Mounted Units (that works great on flatlands for me.) Then, send your own swarm of assassins to wreck the AI's empire.

 

[Nimek]

Again, another way to pull them back a bit is to consider them a singular individual and thus penalize them against units that represent organized military groups. But this proposal was countered.[/QUOTE]

+1 assasin dont represent a group of people (like axeman as ex.) he should be more like special unit that shuold be used to kill others special units.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The AI loves to build hidden nationality units especially those that don't have limits.

On the original subject - I intend to change things so that the AI absolutely does NOT go after it vassal/vassal-lord with hidden units, and while I'm at it I'll probably see what I can do about reducing the weighting of doing it generally based upon the AI in question's attitude towards the owner of a potential target (i.e. - it'll be much less likely against an ally and much more likely against someone it is antagonistic towards)

This would remove a great annoyance, especially as it will allow you to come to the aid of your allies without them attacking your stack rather than the common enemy.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I must say that I agree with the OP that this sort of attack should be toned down. There would be several ways to do this: increase dog's spot range from 1 tile to 2 tiles. This means that you need less dogs to find the assassins, and they can be spotted from further away. Increase the dog's attac snd defence agaonst hidden combat units (these ubits rely on not being detected, after all. A third way would be to increade the cost of maimtaining these units. A fourth to make them national units, so less can be made. Or, simply remove the difference between hidden units and spies, and use the espionage system.

The problems these units presents is so severe that you either needs to station dogs and blockers all along your borders and in every city, or simply kill every nearby AI, unless you like being caught with your pants down. All those units cost alot of maintainance, so the AI is probably winning in the long run.

Actually it might be nice to make some Doggy specific promotions. Stuff like "Track Scent" to give them a bigger sight range. I should go post some ideas in the promotion thread.

 

[strategyonly]

If you can make assassins use them as counters. Build up their melee and combat promos. Hero units with Multiple attack and added combat/melee promos work too.

Sounds like you are using the dog units to spot which is good.

Part of the mod I'm afraid and sounds like you're being challenged. You'll eventually overcome it. I've been experiencing similar situations too. Just takes some trial and error attempts to get a handle on it.

@Koshling,
I vote for no option. The vassal thing is fine and I agree.

But the other part I'm not sure about (targeting those the AI is annoyed with over allies). Reason is the AI still has a bias against the Human player. And instead of seeking targets of opportunity among other AI it will flood the human player. As it still does now with war declarations. And the AI still beelines to the human player territory to build border cities even from across the continent/map. Will tons of empty territory is available in the direction of other AI Civs.

My 2

JosEPh

The AI loves to build hidden nationality units especially those that don't have limits.



This would remove a great annoyance, especially as it will allow you to come to the aid of your allies without them attacking your stack rather than the common enemy.

I agree with Joe, NO option for this is best, and if anyone really remember even the Vatican itself used to send Thiefs/Assassins out to kill their competitors. Infact that "I believe" were it really started, they have a Showtime Series on it infact, The Borgias (The original Crime Syndicate.") who was Pope of Roman Catholics.
http://www.sho.com/site/promotions/world-of-the-borgias/home.do#power

 

[LumenAngel]

Actually it might be nice to make some Doggy specific promotions. Stuff like "Track Scent" to give them a bigger sight range. I should go post some ideas in the promotion thread.

More like "Animal" promotion, so...
Scent of a bear is really impressive too

 

[SteelSterling]

They get on my nerves as well. What I do is have a few dogs and thieves/assassins patrolling my borders and then have some on sentry duty on my borders. I double up on dogs since they're weaker and have the thief units spread in between to back them up. I've also noticed they usually seem to come from one direction for the most part so I build up there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Oh they Do get on your nerves! But that's just the sign of a challenge, They are buggers though with the newer promos. And it took sometime to figure out how to get rid of them in my current game and situation.

All I want is the ability to attack them when they get into one of my cities. Waiting for them to move out is the nerve wracking part. Cause they are setting there pumping out +5 Crime every turn. So when Hirohito plopped 7 Ambushers in my pop 2 Border city the Crime went thru the roof! Ugh!

They did venture out twice and I lost several chariots and a worker to them before I could get a Hero unit with Multiple strikes down there and a couple of Bison riders with extra melee Promos. Didn't help one bit that this city only had 1 grass tile with Pomegranate and all the rest of the main 9 city tiles were either forest or Hills with forest. I eventually killed 5 of them only because they kept trying to go deeper into my empire.

JosEPh

 

[TowerWizard]

@Hydro: Awesome idea! The dog units need more promotions anyway. One could give increased detection range, one could increase attack vs. normally hidden units and one could increase defense against them.

Also, I was not referring only to the Assassins, but to Thieves and Rogues and all other such units. All of them should IMHO be national. Also, they should not be allowed to gain a defensive bonus due to terrain, nor should they be able to fortify. They are not thought of as huge companies, but lone individuals, doing damage by stealth and surprise.

Also, the issue with city centers seems much like a bug to me. Not to be able to attack an enemy because they are in one of YOUR cities? Even if you know they are there due to a dog unit? Huh? I think it is equally strange that such units cannot (to the best of my knowledge) attack units in cities. Sure, I understand that such units cannot capture a city in the same way as helicopters can't in vanilla bts, but that should not mean they cannot attack units there. I could accept this, if it was due to a promotion or something (Hiding in plain sight (but then again they should not be detected either)), but not as a default behavior.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

.... Not to be able to attack an enemy because they are in one of YOUR cities? Even if you know they are there due to a dog unit? Huh? I think it is equally strange that such units cannot (to the best of my knowledge) attack units in cities. Sure, I understand that such units cannot capture a city in the same way as helicopters can't in vanilla bts, but that should not mean they cannot attack units there. I could accept this, if it was due to a promotion or something (Hiding in plain sight (but then again they should not be detected either)), but not as a default behavior.

The problem is that they are not your enemies. If they were they would not be able to enter your cities until all your defending units were destroyed or routed.