Can you support or vote for the GOP without doing harm to minorities and women?

Cloud_Strife

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A pretty simple question really; given the GOPs historically hostile stance on women's issues ranging from abortion, birth control and violence is it possible to vote for them and not materially harm the women in America?

The same question can be asked in regards to non-Caucasians; the gop has scapegoated African Americans, going back to Reagan and the southern strategy to their demonstrable attempts to reduce African American votes which traditionally lean democrat.

What of Hispanics who have been the worst demonized group in the last few years; a naturally conservatives group bring pushed towards the Democrats by the outright hostility and dehumanizing rhetoric of trump and his sycophants?

The LGBTQ community has also suffered massively under Republican rule, from their constant culture war waged against them, demonizing from their religious cohort and perhaps most disgustingly, their tacit abandonment of the LGBTQ during the Aids crisis, which effectively condemned thousands to preventable suffering for ideological reasons.

With this in mind I seriously ask: Is it really possible to vote for the GOP in any context and not inflict material harm on the above mentioned groups?
 
I think it is situational. At the national or even state level, I personally find it unconscionable to vote GOP because their platform, legislative agenda and their tactics are appalling and immoral. For local politicians, it really depends a lot more on the individual candidate and the issues. I will typically vote to re-elect GOP politicians in non-political local positions* if they have not had any scandals. These are all positions where I would not expect politics to play any role in their jobs but if I hear them say something stupid in the news then I will not re-elect them. I feel that maintaining steady leadership is important for these local positions and I'm not going to kick a non-political office holder out if they haven't done anything wrong. My preference would be to have non-GOP people in those positions but often times they are running unopposed. For local political positions on the other hand, I will not vote GOP, period.

*The US is weird in that you vote for a lot of crap like sheriff, coroner, county clerk etc. Sometimes people running for these positions are not allowed to state their affiliation on the ballot, sometimes they are. Here in CA, they send out voter guides where candidates can make a statement and you can usually tell which way these people lean politically even if they can't come out and say that they often fantasize about re-animating Ronald Reagan.
 
Well, you're maybe asking for an objective opinion, which I think is impossible to give. There are talks that GOP members and advocates will give that specifically target these groups, so it's worth figuring out where those talks are and listening to them. If only to figure out how the GOP works to broaden its appeal with them.

In the end, they will deny that they're intending harm. So, they have an idea on how they're 'helping' and not 'harming'. It's probably better to know why they think that rather than the more-human instinct of having reasons why they're wrong.
 
Well, you're maybe asking for an objective opinion, which I think is impossible to give. There are talks that GOP members and advocates will give that specifically target these groups, so it's worth figuring out where those talks are and listening to them. If only to figure out how the GOP works to broaden its appeal with them.

In the end, they will deny that they're intending harm. So, they have an idea on how they're 'helping' and not 'harming'. It's probably better to know why they think that rather than the more-human instinct of having reasons why they're wrong.

I mean I could quote Lee Atwater but I'd prefer not too, alot of it is dogwhistling now because society too a degree has progressed and it's not as acceptable to voice bigotry in an open manner as it once was.

I still don't know how their stances help those they target though; it doesn't help women to infringe and reduce their bodily autonomy, it doesn't help PoC to scapegoat and support policies designed to disadvantage they directly or indirectly,

I genuinely do think there is animus behind their reasoning and that they're just willing to divide and rule.
 
I still don't know how their stances help those they target though
I don't know either, but I think a necessary step would be to figure out what they tell themselves. There are groups composed of each minority group that explicitly identify as a minority, but who welcome talks from GOP speakers. So, I think learning what they're hearing would be a good idea.
 
In answer to your question: No

But there are women in the GOP who would say they are not harmed. There are Hispanics in NM that are Republican that would say they are not harmed. There are Christian women and minorities who vote republican who would say they are not harmed.

So, what does it mean to be "harmed"? Physically? Socially? Financially? Culturally? You should improve your question.
 
The reason that I will not vote for local GOP politicians is that I find that a politician's ability to screw with people's lives increases as the politician gets more local. Here in Irvine, the city council voted to ban people from renting an apartment or house with a non-relative. That's insanely intrusive and the feds or even state could not pull that level of control off without a massive court fight. In the end, there was a court fight that has placed the ordinance on hold but I couldn't even picture the feds attempting to come up with a law like that (much less pass it) in the first place.

Even if local politicians have no direct ties to the national party (which is self-evidently false but whatever), they still tend to toe the party line on various issues. Coupling the immoral party line of the GOP and an enhanced ability to cause ruin and rage on the populace and you have a potentially lethal combination.
 
In answer to your question: No

But there are women in the GOP who would say they are not harmed. There are Hispanics in NM that are Republican that would say they are not harmed. There are Christian women and minorities who vote republican who would say they are not harmed.

So, what does it mean to be "harmed"? Physically? Socially? Financially? Culturally? You should improve your question.

A combination of all 4, including the gradual erosion of their rights.

There's a reason why the GOP tends to attract people with uh... regressive views on women and minorities. I genuinely believe a part of it is punishing those they consider beneath them or worthy of it, be it consciously or subconsciously.
 
In answer to your question: No

But there are women in the GOP who would say they are not harmed. There are Hispanics in NM that are Republican that would say they are not harmed. There are Christian women and minorities who vote republican who would say they are not harmed.

So, what does it mean to be "harmed"? Physically? Socially? Financially? Culturally? You should improve your question.
Blanket statements like 'the GOP harms minorities' can be true even if there are exceptions. And just because someone self-reports they are not harmed does not actually make that statement objectively true. I think that even applies before you factor in perverse incentives like political connections helping their businesses, etc.
 
In answer to your question: No

But there are women in the GOP who would say they are not harmed. There are Hispanics in NM that are Republican that would say they are not harmed. There are Christian women and minorities who vote republican who would say they are not harmed.

So, what does it mean to be "harmed"? Physically? Socially? Financially? Culturally? You should improve your question.
Yeah indeed the world is a bit more complicated than "harm" VS "help".

I mean, Trump still won over 80% of the older Cuban-American vote (that is, from people who actually remember Castro). Even among Mexican-Americans, Trump is still getting 20-30% of the votes. I don't think the people voting for him think he's harming them.

And then there's the fact that the republican party is bigger than Trump.
 
Well, part of the answer is the the same reason why some philosophy arguments spiral into just agreeing that solipsism is true.

Voting is an act of violence, imposing your will on someone else. It's going to always be impossible to vote without harming, especially once you clarify 'harm' enough.
 
A combination of all 4, including the gradual erosion of their rights.

There's a reason why the GOP tends to attract people with uh... regressive views on women and minorities. I genuinely believe a part of it is punishing those they consider beneath them or worthy of it, be it consciously or subconsciously.
Keep in mind that the GOP also has lots of one issue voters: anti abortionists, gun rights, Christians, capitalists, strong military, etc. Sure there are those that support all of the issues, but there are quite a number who only feel strongly about one issue. You want to make all Republicans into bad people. The Republican party is certainly a bad party of bad ideas led by bad people, but Republicans are not all bad people. I certainly disagree with most of them.

One fear among Republicans is that if Roe vs Wade does get settled in the Republicans favor, their voter's interest in voting will decline. That issue alone has been a bulwark of Republican support for decades. Gay right could have been a strong follow up issue, except that they lost that one quickly at every level.
 
Blanket statements like 'the GOP harms minorities' can be true even if there are exceptions. And just because someone self-reports they are not harmed does not actually make that statement objectively true. I think that even applies before you factor in perverse incentives like political connections helping their businesses, etc.
Blanket statements can be true, but voters mostly act on perceived individual benefits. People regularly act in ways that are "objectively" harmful to them selves. They smoke, drive too fast, cheat on their spouses, gamble, steal, lie, are mean, etc. Why would voting be any different? Predicting the future is a tough business; it is easier to respond to what we see now. We can judge what is "objectively true" today, but it is much harder to project that truth into the future.

Perceived individual benefits are different in different segments of the population. As those segments expand, contract, age, get more experience, etc. those perceived benefits change and the political strength of the segment changes. It is dynamic and lots of money and effort is spent to influence what happens.

[Do Political Campaigns Change Voters’ Minds?

BY HUGO MERCIER
Spoiler :
In 2020, at least $6 billion will be spent on political campaigns in the U.S.—over $2 billion on the presidential election alone. These astronomical numbers fuel fears that public opinion will be manipulated, either through traditional techniques like TV ads, cold calling and mailings, or with more sophisticated technology that uses big data for targeted advertising.

But are these fears justified? For nearly two decades, political scientists have systematically tested the effectiveness of political campaigns. To find out whether a campaign strategy works, the best solution is to use randomized control trials. For example, you can randomly select certain neighborhoods to receive a campaign mailing supporting a particular candidate. If those areas vote for the candidate in greater numbers, it should be because the mailing influenced their choice.

This is what Alan Gerber of Yale University, a pioneer in the field, did in one of the first such studies, published in the journal American Behavioral Sciences in 2004. Nearly 100,000 households received mailings in favor of a congressional candidate. Were these people more likely to vote for the candidate? Not one bit. (More precisely, they were 0.2% more likely to do so, which is statistically insignificant.) The study was convincing because it was big: As a rule, the larger the sample, the more solid the conclusion.

In some of the other studies that Prof. Gerber conducted, he found that campaign mailings did have an effect on votes. But these experiments had smaller sample sizes, and their results were contradictory—in one of them, mailings seemed to make people less likely to vote for the candidate. The best way to make sense of such studies is to pool them in a metaanalysis, a statistical test that aggregates the results of many experiments to see if robust patterns emerge.

Last year, in a paper published in the American Political Science Review, political scientists Joshua Kalla of Yale and David Broockman of Stanford looked at all the studies that used randomized trials to test the effectiveness of political campaigns, adding nine of their own studies for good measure. The whole spectrum of campaign tools was covered— mainly canvassing, phone calls and mailings, with a few studies focusing on TV and online ads. The researchers’ conclusion was unambiguous: “The best estimate of the effects of campaign contact and advertising on Americans’ candidates choices in general elections is zero.”

Is all the money spent on political campaigns wasted, then? Not necessarily. Even if each individual campaign strategy has a tiny effect, using them together, or repeatedly,

might multiply their strength. And in primary elections, it turns out that campaigns can have larger (though still modest) effects.

In one of Prof. Gerber’s original experiments, a mailing in a primary election increased the candidate’s vote margin by 2.7%, a significant change. The main reason why campaigning is more effective in a primary is that voters can’t rely on the typical shortcut of party identification, saying simply “I’ll vote for the Democrat” or “I’ll vote for the Republican.” Voters also have weaker opinions and less information about the candidates than in general elections. That makes them more amenable to persuasion, as they learn new information about the candidates. These experiments might seem dated. Who uses snail mail or answers their landlines anymore? The internet is the future, and online campaigns can buy data by the cartload to better aim their targeted messages. Yet there is no evidence that online political ads are any more powerful than old-fashioned TV spots. Indeed, there are good reasons to think that all online ads, not just the political ones, have little impact. Randall Lewis, a researcher at Google, a company that makes 90% of its money selling online advertising, found (in an unpublished paper co-authored with Justin Rao of Microsoft) that the effects of online ads are so small and variable that it is essentially impossible to measure their return.

What about targeted advertising, which was famously used by the political consulting firm Cambridge Analytica in the 2016 presidential election? Ads that take into account an individual’s tastes and preferences can have a small effect on product sales—translating into a few dozen extra purchases after millions of people have been exposed to the ads. But no one has any idea how to obtain even those small effects for political ads—not even Cambridge Analytica, whose work was “pop psychology B.S.,” as Luke Thompson, vice president for politics and advocacy at the Republican analytics firm Applecart, told the L.A. Times in 2018. Why are people so hard to persuade? And does this mean that we are so hopelessly pigheaded that all efforts at changing our minds are wasted? When we encounter a message that challenges our views— like being asked to vote for a candidate we don’t already favor— our first reaction is usually to reject it. We change our minds only if we are provided with good arguments, ideally in the context of a discussion and from a source we perceive as competent and trustworthy. Gaining voters’ trust or engaging them in proper discussion is very hard to do en masse, which is why large-scale persuasion nearly invariably fails to convince us.

When provided with the right reasons by the right people, however, we do change our minds. Profs. Broockman and Kalla found



FROM TOP: MICHAEL BUCHER/THE WALL STREET JOURNAL; NICOLE MILLMAN/REDUX PICTURES



this sweet spot in a 2016 study published in the journal Science, in which canvassers engaged people in a 10-minute conversation on transgender rights. They offered information and arguments and asked the voters to remember a time when they had been “judged negatively for being different,” so that they could better understand the plight of transgender people. This intervention reduced prejudice, and the changes seem to have been genuine, as they were still present three months later.

The huge sums poured into political campaigns rarely achieve such lasting effects, however. So if you’re worried that next year’s election will be gamed by big data analytics or targeted advertising, you can relax—or, better yet, focus on what to do about more effective techniques for manipulating elections, such as gerrymandering and voter suppression.

Prof. Mercier is a cognitive scientist at the Jean Nicod Institute in Paris. His new book, “Not Born Yesterday: The Science of Who We Trust and What We Believe,” will be published by Princeton University Press on Jan. 28.

Evidence shows that ads almost never affect us the way a personal conversation can.

When we encounter a message that challenges our views, our first reaction is usually to reject it.

A volunteer distributes flyers for Sen. Bernie Sanders’s presidential campaign in Manchester, N.H., last month.
 
Gay right could have been a strong follow up issue, except that they lost that one quickly at every level.
They haven't exactly conceded this point. Anti-LGBTQ legislation is a central plank in their agenda at every level from school districts to the national government.
 
They haven't exactly conceded this point. Anti-LGBTQ legislation is a central plank in their agenda at every level from school districts to the national government.
They haven't, but the big hurdle (gay marriage) is now past the point of retraction and accepted by most Americans. At the national level the fight is pretty much over. At the state level the fight will go one for a while yet.
 
At the national level the fight is pretty much over.
Except it isn't! They just kicked individuals that are transgendered out of the military after first letting them in. They've installed hundreds of judges to rule against gay rights at the federal level. That Congress hasn't approved new anti-LGBTQ laws is a function of the loss of the House and not a sea change in their politics. Every federal agency, from HUD to the Dept of Labor are engaging in regulatory roll back and in some cases writing fresh anti-LGBTQ regulations and guidance.
 
Except it isn't! They just kicked individuals that are transgendered out of the military after first letting them in. They've installed hundreds of judges to rule against gay rights at the federal level. That Congress hasn't approved new anti-LGBTQ laws is a function of the loss of the House and not a sea change in their politics. Every federal agency, from HUD to the Dept of Labor are engaging in regulatory roll back and in some cases writing fresh anti-LGBTQ regulations and guidance.
I think those are "local" volatility. After shocks in response to losing the marriage question. They are Trumpian and will be undone once he he is gone. Gay marriage was a huge win with many long term positive repercussions. The rest of the victory will come slowly. Everyone (on both sides) wants total victory now; it rarely happens that fast. More boomers have to die first.
 
I think those are "local" volatility. After shocks in response to losing the marriage question. They are Trumpian and will be undone once he he is gone. Gay marriage was a huge win with many long term positive repercussions. The rest of the victory will come slowly. Everyone (on both sides) wants total victory now; it rarely happens that fast. More boomers have to die first.
It is very weird to me that you keep dismissing real occurrences of harm to that community by the GOP to make the argument that one day it will go away and that it's already mostly gone. Maybe it will go away. Maybe it won't. I would not count on boomers to be the only pillar of hate-politics in that party going forward. There are plenty of young Trump supporters who have happily drank from the kool aid. And I don't really care if the trend is getting better so long as there energetic, active attempts to change the trajectory for the worse in the here and now. And there is enough of these attacks to show that it's really not mostly going away. Yes, they got the right to marry. That does not make a justice and equal society in and of itself.

I'm an optimist too and I think things will work out in favor of liberty going forward. But I don't assume it's a given and I completely empathize with the knee-jerk, anti-bigotry reactions of some here at the notion of supporting the GOP at any level right now.
 
It is very weird to me that you keep dismissing real occurrences of harm to that community by the GOP to make the argument that one day it will go away and that it's already mostly gone. Maybe it will go away. Maybe it won't. I would not count on boomers to be the only pillar of hate-politics in that party going forward. There are plenty of young Trump supporters who have happily drank from the kool aid. And I don't really care if the trend is getting better so long as there energetic, active attempts to change the trajectory for the worse in the here and now. And there is enough of these attacks to show that it's really not mostly going away. Yes, they got the right to marry. That does not make a justice and equal society in and of itself.

I'm an optimist too and I think things will work out in favor of liberty going forward. But I don't assume it's a given and I completely empathize with the knee-jerk, anti-bigotry reactions of some here at the notion of supporting the GOP at any level right now.

It will go away if people keep resisting it. Not sure we can wash our hands of it and go "Job well done." and hope not making eye contact will discourage regression.

Edit: Damnit, I got roped into another one of these threads.
 
Sure, you just have to vote in a seat they don't win
 
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