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Can you support or vote for the GOP without doing harm to minorities and women?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Cloud_Strife, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    A pretty simple question really; given the GOPs historically hostile stance on women's issues ranging from abortion, birth control and violence is it possible to vote for them and not materially harm the women in America?

    The same question can be asked in regards to non-Caucasians; the gop has scapegoated African Americans, going back to Reagan and the southern strategy to their demonstrable attempts to reduce African American votes which traditionally lean democrat.

    What of Hispanics who have been the worst demonized group in the last few years; a naturally conservatives group bring pushed towards the Democrats by the outright hostility and dehumanizing rhetoric of trump and his sycophants?

    The LGBTQ community has also suffered massively under Republican rule, from their constant culture war waged against them, demonizing from their religious cohort and perhaps most disgustingly, their tacit abandonment of the LGBTQ during the Aids crisis, which effectively condemned thousands to preventable suffering for ideological reasons.

    With this in mind I seriously ask: Is it really possible to vote for the GOP in any context and not inflict material harm on the above mentioned groups?
     
  2. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    I think it is situational. At the national or even state level, I personally find it unconscionable to vote GOP because their platform, legislative agenda and their tactics are appalling and immoral. For local politicians, it really depends a lot more on the individual candidate and the issues. I will typically vote to re-elect GOP politicians in non-political local positions* if they have not had any scandals. These are all positions where I would not expect politics to play any role in their jobs but if I hear them say something stupid in the news then I will not re-elect them. I feel that maintaining steady leadership is important for these local positions and I'm not going to kick a non-political office holder out if they haven't done anything wrong. My preference would be to have non-GOP people in those positions but often times they are running unopposed. For local political positions on the other hand, I will not vote GOP, period.

    *The US is weird in that you vote for a lot of crap like sheriff, coroner, county clerk etc. Sometimes people running for these positions are not allowed to state their affiliation on the ballot, sometimes they are. Here in CA, they send out voter guides where candidates can make a statement and you can usually tell which way these people lean politically even if they can't come out and say that they often fantasize about re-animating Ronald Reagan.
     
  3. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Well, you're maybe asking for an objective opinion, which I think is impossible to give. There are talks that GOP members and advocates will give that specifically target these groups, so it's worth figuring out where those talks are and listening to them. If only to figure out how the GOP works to broaden its appeal with them.

    In the end, they will deny that they're intending harm. So, they have an idea on how they're 'helping' and not 'harming'. It's probably better to know why they think that rather than the more-human instinct of having reasons why they're wrong.
     
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  4. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    I mean I could quote Lee Atwater but I'd prefer not too, alot of it is dogwhistling now because society too a degree has progressed and it's not as acceptable to voice bigotry in an open manner as it once was.

    I still don't know how their stances help those they target though; it doesn't help women to infringe and reduce their bodily autonomy, it doesn't help PoC to scapegoat and support policies designed to disadvantage they directly or indirectly,

    I genuinely do think there is animus behind their reasoning and that they're just willing to divide and rule.
     
  5. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I don't know either, but I think a necessary step would be to figure out what they tell themselves. There are groups composed of each minority group that explicitly identify as a minority, but who welcome talks from GOP speakers. So, I think learning what they're hearing would be a good idea.
     
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  6. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    In answer to your question: No

    But there are women in the GOP who would say they are not harmed. There are Hispanics in NM that are Republican that would say they are not harmed. There are Christian women and minorities who vote republican who would say they are not harmed.

    So, what does it mean to be "harmed"? Physically? Socially? Financially? Culturally? You should improve your question.
     
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  7. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    The reason that I will not vote for local GOP politicians is that I find that a politician's ability to screw with people's lives increases as the politician gets more local. Here in Irvine, the city council voted to ban people from renting an apartment or house with a non-relative. That's insanely intrusive and the feds or even state could not pull that level of control off without a massive court fight. In the end, there was a court fight that has placed the ordinance on hold but I couldn't even picture the feds attempting to come up with a law like that (much less pass it) in the first place.

    Even if local politicians have no direct ties to the national party (which is self-evidently false but whatever), they still tend to toe the party line on various issues. Coupling the immoral party line of the GOP and an enhanced ability to cause ruin and rage on the populace and you have a potentially lethal combination.
     
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  8. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    A combination of all 4, including the gradual erosion of their rights.

    There's a reason why the GOP tends to attract people with uh... regressive views on women and minorities. I genuinely believe a part of it is punishing those they consider beneath them or worthy of it, be it consciously or subconsciously.
     
  9. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Blanket statements like 'the GOP harms minorities' can be true even if there are exceptions. And just because someone self-reports they are not harmed does not actually make that statement objectively true. I think that even applies before you factor in perverse incentives like political connections helping their businesses, etc.
     
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  10. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Yeah indeed the world is a bit more complicated than "harm" VS "help".

    I mean, Trump still won over 80% of the older Cuban-American vote (that is, from people who actually remember Castro). Even among Mexican-Americans, Trump is still getting 20-30% of the votes. I don't think the people voting for him think he's harming them.

    And then there's the fact that the republican party is bigger than Trump.
     
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  11. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Well, part of the answer is the the same reason why some philosophy arguments spiral into just agreeing that solipsism is true.

    Voting is an act of violence, imposing your will on someone else. It's going to always be impossible to vote without harming, especially once you clarify 'harm' enough.
     
  12. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Keep in mind that the GOP also has lots of one issue voters: anti abortionists, gun rights, Christians, capitalists, strong military, etc. Sure there are those that support all of the issues, but there are quite a number who only feel strongly about one issue. You want to make all Republicans into bad people. The Republican party is certainly a bad party of bad ideas led by bad people, but Republicans are not all bad people. I certainly disagree with most of them.

    One fear among Republicans is that if Roe vs Wade does get settled in the Republicans favor, their voter's interest in voting will decline. That issue alone has been a bulwark of Republican support for decades. Gay right could have been a strong follow up issue, except that they lost that one quickly at every level.
     
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  13. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Blanket statements can be true, but voters mostly act on perceived individual benefits. People regularly act in ways that are "objectively" harmful to them selves. They smoke, drive too fast, cheat on their spouses, gamble, steal, lie, are mean, etc. Why would voting be any different? Predicting the future is a tough business; it is easier to respond to what we see now. We can judge what is "objectively true" today, but it is much harder to project that truth into the future.

    Perceived individual benefits are different in different segments of the population. As those segments expand, contract, age, get more experience, etc. those perceived benefits change and the political strength of the segment changes. It is dynamic and lots of money and effort is spent to influence what happens.

    [Do Political Campaigns Change Voters’ Minds?

    BY HUGO MERCIER
    Spoiler :
     
  14. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    They haven't exactly conceded this point. Anti-LGBTQ legislation is a central plank in their agenda at every level from school districts to the national government.
     
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  15. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    They haven't, but the big hurdle (gay marriage) is now past the point of retraction and accepted by most Americans. At the national level the fight is pretty much over. At the state level the fight will go one for a while yet.
     
  16. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Except it isn't! They just kicked individuals that are transgendered out of the military after first letting them in. They've installed hundreds of judges to rule against gay rights at the federal level. That Congress hasn't approved new anti-LGBTQ laws is a function of the loss of the House and not a sea change in their politics. Every federal agency, from HUD to the Dept of Labor are engaging in regulatory roll back and in some cases writing fresh anti-LGBTQ regulations and guidance.
     
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I think those are "local" volatility. After shocks in response to losing the marriage question. They are Trumpian and will be undone once he he is gone. Gay marriage was a huge win with many long term positive repercussions. The rest of the victory will come slowly. Everyone (on both sides) wants total victory now; it rarely happens that fast. More boomers have to die first.
     
  18. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    It is very weird to me that you keep dismissing real occurrences of harm to that community by the GOP to make the argument that one day it will go away and that it's already mostly gone. Maybe it will go away. Maybe it won't. I would not count on boomers to be the only pillar of hate-politics in that party going forward. There are plenty of young Trump supporters who have happily drank from the kool aid. And I don't really care if the trend is getting better so long as there energetic, active attempts to change the trajectory for the worse in the here and now. And there is enough of these attacks to show that it's really not mostly going away. Yes, they got the right to marry. That does not make a justice and equal society in and of itself.

    I'm an optimist too and I think things will work out in favor of liberty going forward. But I don't assume it's a given and I completely empathize with the knee-jerk, anti-bigotry reactions of some here at the notion of supporting the GOP at any level right now.
     
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  19. Synsensa

    Synsensa - Retired Moderator

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    It will go away if people keep resisting it. Not sure we can wash our hands of it and go "Job well done." and hope not making eye contact will discourage regression.

    Edit: Damnit, I got roped into another one of these threads.
     
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  20. Arwon

    Arwon

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    Sure, you just have to vote in a seat they don't win
     
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