[GS] Canada Discussion Thread

[Patine]

I wouldn't even call her a regent as leader of France. She was more of a semi-autonomous duchess of Aquitaine and vassal of her husband.

She's a HIGHLY dubious choice as leader. Not quite as much so as Bonnie Prince Charlie the Young Jacobite Pretender as an English leader - but VERY dubious nonetheless.

 

[Patine]

Isn’t Four Faces of Peace a concept developed by Lester Pearson?

Yes. As I've said several times, Pearson should have been the leader, NOT Laurier. I regard Laurier as an inferior choice in every MEANINGFUL way.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

Eleanor seems like a sore spot for a lot of people too. It's just fallen to the wayside for the time being.

Ugh, I am not looking forward to that announcement, or more specifically the reaction to it. Advanced warning: Eleanor is a perfectly valid choice, deal with it.

I love coming here to share my thoughts and opinions with you all but the one thing that really gets my goat is the constant overreaction to civ and leader choices, largely based on nothing more than personal bias and some nonsensical, inflexible notion of what is 'right' and 'worthy'.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

The thing about Canada that I'm looking forward to most is the inevitable Quill stream. I wonder what he makes of their depiction? He is normally quite a reasonable chap.

 

[ChocolateShake]

The main problem with their design from my perspective is it seems too passive. Maybe they should get a free builder whenever they build a city on a tundra tile, could tie in nicely with frontier development, and I don't think it'd be too OP as you'd still have to build a city in a tundra spot. It would also tie in nicely with their history I believe.

Canada is going to be a challenge for the first two thirds of the game and it will require the player to hold his nerve until the later boosts to culture and diplomacy kick in. I've a feeling the appeal of its unique playstyle will grow over time.

I agree, I think Canada will be the most challenging civ to get a victory with so far, none of their bonuses seem to translate to a strong early game, unless you have a very resource rich tundra (that also lacks resources that give food).

I do think the devs wanted to include Canada, not just as a way to match mechanics/a certain design. I think the ice rinks were a step too much in the stereotypical direction, but I don't know much about Canada's history to really comment there. Personally I don't think entertainment based UIs shouldn't be used very frequently, but this one looks really powerful, and it's very rewarding for players who settle close to or in tundra. In a way it's also encouraging more entertainment districts.

 

[local_hero]

I felt underwhelmed by the First look yesterday. Partially because I had really hoped to see Sweden I suppose. And that I didn't like the aesthetics of Canada, how the tundra was so green and their colours. Hopefully they will often appear with other colours with the jersey system.

The ice hockey rink still feels uninspiring to me, but the rest I think looks kinda OK. They will probably not be among the stronger civs but that's positive in my opinion. They offer unique gameplay which is more important in addition to that they will probably be OK/Good tier. I suppose getting city parks with Liang isn't something people usually do with RnF, but creating national parks shouldn't be that difficult because of low appeal, everything is in the game to work around that (city parks, planting forests, wonders etc). To get the maximum out of Canada requires you to plan your cities differently, outside your comfort zone, which is what scares people off I believe? I don't know if they'll be my cup of tea, but not everything needs to be designed for me either.

And regarding comparisons between the Canadian tundra abilities and with the Russian one, and calls for buffing the food output further/make tundra like plains etc. I don't like that at all. Tundra should be worse than grassland and plains. Canada should compete for the most fertile and productive land in the early game with everybody else rather than heading for the tundra. Tundra is worse terrain and is a harsh place to live on. That's practically why no one does live there IRL. But in worst case scenario, Canada is the second best civ in the game to settle the tundras. Or they might be quite comparable to Russia. Should be able to sustain higher populations than the Russians which can be translated into more production long term.

(Glad if Sweden dodges any tundra abilities or start bias. We barely have any at all, while Canada and Russia seem to cover most of the tundras of the world. It's sensible that they are having the tundra abilities.)

The various ways to get more Diplomatic Favor seems useful. Hard to say without knowing more about the system though.

I'm torn on the Mountie though. I like the ability to create national parks but I'm not excited that it is another Cavalry UU. Roosevelts Corollary, the new Hungarian one and the Cossacks are already in there and it makes all feel less special. But I realise it's hard to avoid this when the game has so gotten so many civs. I just think that it might have been a unique support unit instead that doesn't replace anything? Could have had one charge to create a national park and some other ability. That would have made Canada the only civ with a non-combat UU? Don't think that's worse than not being able to declare or recieve surprise wars.

Oh my, this became lengthy.

 

[SHS`]

Eleanor seems like a sore spot for a lot of people too. It's just fallen to the wayside for the time being.

We're talking Eleanor of Aquitaine right? I'd like to see her as an alt-leader for England AND France...

 

[Siptah]

I'd like to see her as an alt-leader for England AND France...

That's what's supposed to happen.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Ugh, I am not looking forward to that announcement, or more specifically the reaction to it.

Oh, I am. I've ordered in extra popcorn just for the occasion

I don't think Eleanor is the best choice they could have picked for either France or England, not by a long way. But she does just about work as an interchangeable leader for both Civs. My main worry is that that part of the leak will turn out to be wrong and she's only going to be the leader of one or the other. However, given that a) the rest of the leak has been right so far, and b) not being funny but why on Earth would they have chosen her for England OR France when both nations have so many better-qualified leader choices, I am hopeful.

Mostly I'm just excited to see what bonus she has (crossing my fingers for something cultural, related to troubadours, possibly chansons de geste) and how she's portrayed. If the only criterion for a leader in Civ was for them to have been a really interesting historical figure, she has qualifications in spades.

 

[Leathaface]

It seems there won't be any live stream for Canada, I've seen nothing on Reddit about one.

I like this civ. Peaceful, tundra-friendly, a slow burner. People are always complaining about how games can get boring after 100 moves because a strong start has assured them of ultimate victory. Canada is going to be a challenge for the first two thirds of the game and it will require the player to hold his nerve until the later boosts to culture and diplomacy kick in. I've a feeling the appeal of its unique playstyle will grow over time.

This is a well written post. Canada will indeed appeal to the players who like to play peaceful and go Culture and maybe now diplomatic. Plus as @Trav'ling Canuck has said, for players who find Deity too hard at present Canada could be a good Civ to try Deity with.

You are right about people saying the game is over after the first 100 turns, Canada will be a Civ where that isn't (largely) possible. That is a good thing IMO.

I do think the devs wanted to include Canada, not just as a way to match mechanics/a certain design. I think the ice rinks were a step too much in the stereotypical direction, but I don't know much about Canada's history to really comment there. Personally I don't think entertainment based UIs shouldn't be used very frequently, but this one looks really powerful, and it's very rewarding for players who settle close to or in tundra. In a way it's also encouraging more entertainment districts.

I think it's good if there is more of an incentive to build entertainment districts now. People only build one for the Colosseum or if they play as Brazil.

 

[Uberfrog]

Mostly I'm just excited to see what bonus she has (crossing my fingers for something cultural, related to troubadours, possibly chansons de geste) and how she's portrayed. If the only criterion for a leader in Civ was for them to have been a really interesting historical figure, she has qualifications in spades.

I agree. To be honest I'm pretty relaxed about queens regent being leaders in Civ VI, as long as they have the personality and interesting playstyle to back them up. Civ VI has little interest portraying a government as it's actually run, so I don't see why a regent without a king is any more outrageous than a Prime Minister (such as Laurier or Curtin) without a parliament.

Ugh, I am not looking forward to that announcement, or more specifically the reaction to it.

I think Kristina's announcement might prove the most controversial.

 

[DeepKing]

The Ice Hockey rinks will help with appeal, Tundra tiles tend to have higher appeals than others, and a good amount of Natural Wonders tend to form in Tundra tiles. I agree that setting up parks can be annoying, but it’s really not that hard - especially with civs like Persia and Canada who can raise appeal themselves.

Plus wonders raise appeal and there are a number of those that affect multiple tiles and GP who do too. Seriously being able to place multiple parks without an expensive Naturalist is big.

 

[Siptah]

The Ice Hockey rinks will help with appeal, Tundra tiles tend to have higher appeals than others, and a good amount of Natural Wonders tend to form in Tundra tiles. I agree that setting up parks can be annoying, but it’s really not that hard - especially with civs like Persia and Canada who can raise appeal themselves.

Plus wonders raise appeal and there are a number of those that affect multiple tiles and GP who do too. Seriously being able to place multiple parks without an expensive Naturalist is big.

Depends on how expensive Mounties are. I would be surprised if they are upgradeable. They will probably be quite negative in some games, while the first Naturalist is often kind of a freeby in non-religious game since you amassed some faith throughout the game nonetheless (at least it happens to me quite often). On the other hand, the mere ability to get parks with production is great in the long run. The +CS near parks seems completely irrelevant.

I agree that Eiffel Tower will be a go to wonder for Canada (it is for any CV with parks and resorts anyway). With this one, it is quite easy to build a few parks, good beach resorts and, presumably, good ski resorts.

 

[Giskler]

It seems there won't be any live stream for Canada, I've seen nothing on Reddit about one.

 

[Siptah]

I hope that it works as a WC deep dive as well. Won‘t be able to watch it until next week though So keep me up to date as always, folks.

 

[Disgustipated]

Canada could be a good Civ to try Deity with.

I don't know about that. The AI is quick to denounce on higher difficulty levels. They will just revert to formal wars instead. You will get a little bit of a heads up at least. But the lack of early game bonuses will still make this a VERY challenging civ to play on deity. You are better off playing the Aztecs instead.

I always forget the live streams are on Thursdays, and I stupidly scheduled my blood test on Thursday at that time. And it's too late to reschedule for an appointment this week. Looks like I'll have to watch it later.

 

[Leathaface]

How long does a denouncement last?

Awesome!

 

[PhilBowles]

Oh, I am. I've ordered in extra popcorn just for the occasion

I don't think Eleanor is the best choice they could have picked for either France or England, not by a long way. But she does just about work as an interchangeable leader for both Civs.

If they wanted a dual leader couldn't they have used Matilda as a dual leader for England and Germany?

 

[Uberfrog]

I hope that it works as a WC deep dive as well. Won‘t be able to watch it until next week though So keep me up to date as always, folks.

Ed said on Twitter that they're not ready for a deep dive on the World Congress yet, but that this stream will still serve as a "first look" at the feature.

 

[Lord Lakely]

She's a HIGHLY dubious choice as leader. Not quite as much so as Bonnie Prince Charlie the Young Jacobite Pretender as an English leader - but VERY dubious nonetheless.

Having Eleanor as a leader for France is no less dubious than say, having Perikles represent *all of Greece*. Perikles was strategos of Athens, which under his reign waged war against Sparta *and* Thebes and controlled an alliance which didn't even include that other important polis, Corinth. (In fact, Corinth had significantly better relations with the Spartans than the Athenians). Yet most rational people here have no problems with him representing the Greek civilization as a whole, because you know, he was Greek, a leader in his own right and *competent*.

Guess what? All of the above also apply to Eleanor. She isn't made legitimate simply due to her role as Queen Consort of France, but rather of her being the ruler of a Duchy that was *part of France*. Hell, this board hoped really hard that she was AETHELFAED at first and Aethelflaed was only the Queen of *Mercia*, which is merely a part of what we now know as "England". Eleanor perfectly eligible to lead France in her own right and that she's eligible for England too due to being a de facto regent is just an added bonus.

 

[Josephias]

Guess what? All of the above also apply to Eleanor. She isn't made legitimate simply due to her role as Queen Consort of France, but rather of her being the ruler of a Duchy that was *part of France*.

This! Nedless to say, the “grandeur” of Aquitanie, with their Knights and their Trobadours, is probably one of the things French culture likes to to be its Middle Ages portrayal.