Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Immaculate]

Its meant to be very small- at least at present- precisely because it is counter to Catholicism/Moralism and most people are THOROUGHLY Catholic/Moralist. I allude to that several times.

Catholicism has been dominant in Colombia for a long time and while public Catholic education is maybe only less than 10 years old, I’m betting that previous to that Catholicism was already very involved in formation and education- maybe as much as now but not as formally so.

I said that prosperity gospel was specific to 1) the president and his rhetoric and 2) the educational system. I feel that’s fair for precisely the reasons you outlined.

As for Catholicism and war, the ‘quoted author’ specifically makes reference to a history of supporting war, not a contemporary love for peace. I realize that modern Catholicism under your guidance has been stating they want peace consistently (except vs. proles) but it hasn’t always been that way.

I try to weave a context of appropriateness by detailing the hows and why in the origin. I leave it to EQ to decide if it makes sense or not. I’ve tried my best to tie it to circumstances and not just import some inappropriate counter-culuture movement from our time line.

Remember, ultimately the success of this movement hurts me most of all as its probably going to be very destabilizing- I want it for RP and story/world-building purposes.

 

[Jehoshua]

Except with regards to 2) as I noted, the Church runs the education system directly and since it doesn't proclaim a prosperity gospel how can the education system teach it? Likewise my point about the education system and political moralism is that the impetus you acknowledged as the cause of this movement hasn't been around long enough to see a new generation which would exhibit counter-cultural tendencies. If there are any "rooties" they'd be young teenagers.

-

Your war comments are also quite strange, since they are baseless. The War of the Catholic League was started by the protestants for example who feared the rise of Spain. The Church has never really promoted warfare at all throughout the entire CI series. The only blip on the ecclesiastical war radar was the last Italian war which was initiated by the Pope against Naples, but considering the long history of Italian Nationalism and attacks against the Pope and his sovereignty there, that's a whole other story.

Likewise, all the other points I mentioned still stand. (Catholicism as an identity marker, the appearance of translocating contemporary IRL ideas into the Capto Iugulum thirties world, the absence of massive social upheaval or calamity to precipitate tearing in the social fabric, and so on and so forth). It doesn't to me make sense at least in Colombia (in Argentina anything goes ) for this movement to emerge at this particular moment in time (although of course it could emerge in some form or another elsewhere, depending on events and circumstance).

EDIT: Oh, and you also appear to be continuing to make a number of unsubstantiated assumptions on Colombian history... The Colombian education system was completely secular as far as I know before its Catholicisation for example, and there is little to no reference of the previous history of the Colombian state in your analysis of how this movement (presuming it is deemed licit to exist at this point in the game) could of emerged. EDIT II: It also is questionable whether the social situation is conductive to counter-cultures, we are not afterall talking about the liberal 60's west., where "freedom" was long before that point upheld as a leitmotif of the good, and where Marxist influences in the universities perhaps encouraged rebellion against "the system" as the effects of the disruptions of the forties reached a tipping point.

 

[Crezth]

It is detailed and well written, but it seems anachronistic (60's in the 30's hippies?) in that it appears to translocate contemporaneous IRL trends (which themselves resulted from massive changes that proceeded from the second world war) into the CI past (feminism?) and pre-emptive in that Moralism and increased Church influence in Colombia haven't been around for that long, so a new generation of counter-cultural folk hasn't really had time to arise. This of course even presuming its appropriate for the context, which is itself questionable.

It also seems to rest on several un-validated assumptions such as that the Church run education system in Colombia teaches some sort of materialist prosperity gospel (something the Church doesn't and never has taught, that's a protestant phenomenon, albeit it teaches that sin has temporal consequences and the moralists in Colombia might apply that politically to say sin leads to economic harm) and that Christianity is associated with war (which is strange considering in CI it was the liberals who ran full pace into the great war, whereas most of the religions were opposed, which is partly why liberalism is not so influential).

Oh, and I would also add it seems strange for any movement in an overwhelmingly Catholic nation to propose the rejection of the Church. Unlike Protestantism where switching and choosing between various communities is the norm (at least in America), Catholicism imparts a much greater marker on ones identity. This is why IRL blatant heretics still call themselves Catholic and remain in the Church despite disagreeing with what it teaches, and why many people still call themselves Catholic despite being practically secular. (and in 30's CI as in RL, where the Church is very much its own culture, the magnitude of upheaval that would convince people to leave that culture would have to be very strong indeed, something that hasn't really occurred in Colombia to date (the lacklustre oil project does not really cut it ))

Oh, come on. Let him have his fun.

 

[Immaculate]

I liked your original message before you edited it

 

[Crezth]

I don't think there's anything wrong with your movement insofar as a comprehensive image of Columbia, much less the world, does not exist. We don't have a sixteenth as much knowledge of the world that CI is supposed to represent as we do for our own. With that said, I am fully willing to accept that a kind of peace-loving flower-children movement can spring up in lieu of another bland culture of pious moralists. Not to hate on Brazil, but Columbia's history is her own and the many skeins of fate that built her are too much for us to say "it has to be this way or another."

When it comes to NESing or, as I call it (because I am a tool) "cooperative worldbuilding," I see a person's nation as his own to mold and experiment with. It's all about having fun thinking about culture and history and whatever that involves that interests you. Whether you're an unimaginative warmonger like me, or someone who is deeply invested in cultural institutions such as the Catholic Church like Jehoshua, or simply someone who just wants to have fun playing model united nations, NESing is a thoroughly egotistical enterprise and the character of your nation is your own to build.

 

[Immaculate]

Thanks.

Ultimately i think Jehoshua has some valid points; but i do also think that there are some valid complaints to Moralism and Catholicism that could drive a counter-cultural movement.

Also remember that at the height of the economic depression, Colombia experienced a further 20% economic contraction. Jehoshua poo-poohs that,

the magnitude of upheaval that would convince people to leave that culture would have to be very strong indeed, something that hasn't really occurred in Colombia to date (the lacklustre oil project does not really cut it ))

but that’s huge. A 20% economic contraction would push unemployment by 20-30%. If its already at 15% due to the worldwide recession… There’s a reason Colombia has been bleeding stability.


The updates have been pretty clear that there is something ‘rotten in the state of Colombia’, involving both a disillusionment (at least within the legislature and they must speak for some percentage of the country) with Moralism and its authoritative religious governance, and due to failure of the much anticipated ‘oil economy’. I wrote to EQandCivfanatic to get an idea of what that represented and outlined a brief version to him, of what I ended up posting above and he basically said, “It would start small but there’s room for that sort of movement in Colombia” (Correct me if I am misrepresenting you EQ). Ultimately EQ decides this, not me or Jehoshua.


So that’s what the Rooties are. I have repeatedly said that the cultural depth of Catholicism in Colombia has limited the movement’s popularity and that it remains quite small. So Jehoshua’s criticisms, I feel, is already considered.

 

[Jehoshua]

Oh, come on. Let him have his fun.

Tis my job to be the social critic

Anyways, I suppose such a group could exist, but I have my doubts that in a Catholic state they could get very far. Indeed following historical precedent in times of hardship, a much larger portion of society is likely to turn to piety come religious fanaticism as a consequence of Colombia;s woes (I can just see the flagellants processing through Bogota's streets now )

 

[Crezth]

I think that's 100% a matter of opinion.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

@EQ: how many contextual random events do you have? how do you apply them in updates, and how do you add new ones? can the players recommend you random events?

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well I can't actually say what the events are you understand, or really discuss when/how new ones are added to the roster. I will take recommendations though, if you feel there's something missing.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

5th Eastern Front (UPRA): 645,000 ; 2 Armored Divisions
Crimson Grizzles (Jack): 15,000
vs.
Army of Northern Georgia (USA): 711,000 ; 1 Armored Division
Trans-Atlantic Expeditionary Army (Rus): 165,000 ; 1 Armored Division


1st Eastern Front (UPRA): 102,000
vs.
USA: 90,000


1st Northern Front (UPRA): 213,000
First Army of the Republic (FL): 186,000
vs.
Army of the Ohio (USA): 180,000 ; 1 Armored Division


II Corps/Cherokee State Guard (FL): 84,000
vs.
Army of Kansas (USA): 27,000


Apache State Guard (FL): 30,000
Army Group Yeti (Jack): 177,000
vs.
Army of the Rockies (USA): 135,000


Northern Expedition (Jack): 135,000
vs.
Army of the Pacific (USA): 18,000

 

[Luckymoose]

Hmm, Jacksonians went via the canal? Time to change that.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Technically they went across Florida, your new ally.

 

[TheLastJacobite]

Ironic that Florida, an ally of Brazil who is the self-declared premier fighter in the war against Proletarism, is now fighting alongside the UPRA...

 

[Grandkhan]

Hmm, Jacksonians went via the canal? Time to change that.

You are aware that Jacksonia has a continuous line from the West Coast to the East Coast to move from, right?

Like, Jacksonians in the East doesn't really imply that they went via the canal.

Edit: Beaten, also;

Northern Expedition (Jack): 135,000
vs.
Army of the Pacific (USA): 18,000

The US' pacific route of supply from Russia may be compromised.

 

[Luckymoose]

Technically they went across Florida, your new ally.

Well, I guess that means Brazil withdraws support from Florida. Brazil ain't no scrub.

 

[Terrance888]

Florida so OOC >.>

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

@Terrance888: Whatever do you mean? It's perfectly in character for a nation to attack a friendly neighbor with whom it has numerous trading agreements and economic pacts with. And of course, it's to be expected to do so without a declaration of war. It's also only reasonable to attack alongside a nation with whom you just waged a brutal war upon less than a decade before. On top of that, it's practically a must to wage such a war if the people at stake are proletarists who in the past tried to murder you. It'd be obscene to expect even the slightest Stability reduction or major economic recession you'd suffer if making such a decision.

 

[Luckymoose]

Ironic that Florida, an ally of Brazil who is the self-declared premier fighter in the war against Proletarism, is now fighting alongside the UPRA...

Brazil has killed proletarist governments. Russia hasn't the balls to kill the mouth piece of the Proletarism on her own border.

 

[Terrance888]

@Terrance888: Whatever do you mean? It's perfectly in character for a nation to attack a friendly neighbor with whom it has numerous trading agreements and economic pacts with. And of course, it's to be expected to do so without a declaration of war. It's also only reasonable to attack alongside a nation with whom you just waged a brutal war upon less than a decade before. On top of that, it's practically a must to wage such a war if the people at stake are proletarists who in the past tried to murder you. It'd be obscene to expect even the slightest Stability reduction or major economic recession you'd suffer if making such a decision.

Only if christos is playing.