Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Jehoshua]

On your comments regarding the post-great-war generation. Didn't EQ note that the very same generation was turning towards more conservative and religious ideologies, due to a reaction away from liberalism which was seen to be warmongering in support of the conflict? Indeed, that there is a conservative swing amongst the young could perhaps be why the Church has increased in influence over the last number of decades from what it was before the great war (and it definitely explains the success of moralism, and the conservative swing in Italy and other countries). The Hungarian, Scandinavian and I would add the French situations probably would contribute to this as well, since both situations were chaos and suffering caused by proletarists or other radicals, to which the natural backlash is a more traditionalist or conservative view. With an anti-liberal backlash to liberal warmongering in the great war already present, these events would strengthen the traditionalist trend amongst the young.

Now this isn't to say that there isn't a counter-traditional youth scene in music and the like (one can't put a generation all in one box). But a lot of the problems in Europe came about due to "progressive" by which I mean liberal/prole/hollandist ideological radicalism, and one would think that the young would move away from this instead of going towards it as a response to the historical circumstances. Indeed looking at the prole/liberal situation in Europe it would not be a stretch to say that its the older generation, that is more associated with more liberal ideology, that is the main push for it in the polls. Indeed the re-constitution of the confederacy is obviously an exercise in nostalgia for a better past, something likely to be more keenly felt amongst the older generations rather than the youth.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Perhaps counterculturalists are the people who are fed up both with the old state authority structures and the more fashionable religious conservative cultural bloc, and are turning to a third option, perhaps something more libertine or anarchistic.

 

[Jehoshua]

perhaps, but considering the society we're in which is far more Conservative than IRL was (and by this I mean non-liberal conservative) and in general far more morally minded, libertinism and anarchism I think would not be tolerated and would be fairly swiftly cracked down upon, even in fairly liberal states.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Actually what I said, in regards to the post-Great War social change was that because the Church was firmly against the war, particularly in Catholic states, the "loss of faith" that most nations went through in the wake of the RL WW1 didn't take place. This in turn would create a more religious society by default, predominantly in Catholic nations. This doesn't preclude the establishment of a counter-culture, but the differences in what developed would be distinct. I leave it to the players to develop it from there, but looking at what we have had happen, we've got two distinct different developments (I am apply these statements to Western nations, btw, no others). Among predominantly Protestant nations we have the development of nihilistic, secular cultures not too different from the same sort of developments in OTL in the 1920s. Among predominantly Catholic nations we have a renewal of the faith, and greater traditional conservatism.

 

[Grandkhan]

I think I remember saying to EQ recently that Danish teens are going to be morbid as all hell. Think about it: you're 18-24ish in Denmark. You were born right before the Copenhagen rising, which changed the country in a huge way, and in a way it hasn't properly recovered from since, even if you're not from Copenhagen. Even if you were 5 or 6 when it happened, you were born in a time when Copenhagen was about to erupt into revolution anyway, so the social issues are still there when you were extremely young.

You've never seen prosperity, because Denmark has been economically repressed since the Rising,and the amazing boom that the modern world enjoyed after the Rhine War completely passed you by. Your formative years were spent under the virtual military dictatorship that was the Boye government, which I always understood to be bloody repressive and, if not an actual dictatorship, run by people who thought that they could do whatever they wanted by virtue of their huge majority from eight years ago. With the economy basically serving a vastly overbloated military-industrial complex, your prospects for employment (which you are now entering) are either the huge military, leaving the country to Vinland, or absolutely nothing, and the best you have to look forward to is a never-ending watch on the shores of Sjaelland against this generation's greatest enemy, who its not like you even sympathise with given how they're responsible for the current crisis in your eyes - its not like Danes are going to be particularly sympathetic to Proletarism. On top of that, there is the ever present fear that this enemy is going to come down on you at any moment - the Scandinavians are probably Denmark's most existential fear.

In short, your future is kind of bleak, because even though the Liberals have been elected and the military-industrial complex is diminishing, you've still grown up with this and you're just getting out of it. Your prospects are minimal, and the best you have to look forward to is an unending watch against a vastly more powerful enemy over a narrow band of water.

In short, I look forward to the creation of emos and goths 40 years early and a weird really morbid, pessimistic youth culture coming out of Denmark soon. I probably should get on that at some point.

 

[Jehoshua]

hmm, I don't think subcultures would be ripe to flourish in the strict, one-sighted Danish environment. Nihilistic and fatalistic political positions perhaps, and a general melancholy. But not goths and emo's... Denmark is more like 1950's Britain than late 20th century western nations is what I'm saying.

 

[Crezth]

Yeah, I'm not sure goths and emos happen because of an actually bleak future, considering the countries they happened in, historically, don't really have any kind of bleakness to their name.

Probably more like an East Germany thing, minus the communist guilt.

 

[Grandkhan]

hmm, I don't think subcultures would be ripe to flourish in the strict, one-sighted Danish environment. Nihilistic and fatalistic political positions perhaps, and a general melancholy. But not goths and emo's... Denmark is more like 1950's Britain than late 20th century western nations is what I'm saying.

Yeah, I'm not sure goths and emos happen because of an actually bleak future, considering the countries they happened in, historically, don't really have any kind of bleakness to their name.

Probably more like an East Germany thing, minus the communist guilt.

It was kind of a joke. I'm not seriously saying that Goths and Emos are going to start coming up.

My point was that in Denmark, at least (and possibly Italy), young people are going to be pretty melancholic and, more to the point, apathetic. I'm kind of envisioning people who aren't hugely interested in politics because the economy is only barely turning around after six years of Liberal government as an alternative to Boye, so neither party looks particularly different, minor parties have never been popular in Denmark, and Proles have been their enemy their entire life - its not like South Korea had a huge young communist movement after the 60s. So you get people who are apathetic to politics but not turning to radical parties. I'm bad at extrapolating this into social attitudes, but I'm guessing pretty fatalistic bastards as a rule. Denmark probably puts out some morbid literature, where its not just escapism. Escapism is probably more likely, however.

Youth alcoholism is probably really high though, as well as high reported rates of atheism, in the vein of modern Germany or Estonia - though they are probably not politically active about it.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

So for those interested, the wiki now has a total list of all wars, complete with casualties where possible. Bloodiest war is still the Great War, unless you include civilian casualties in which case it would be the War of the Ascendancy/War of the Three Emperors.

Now, as this weekend will be the grinding time for me to complete the wiki, the next couple of days are the time for ya'll to request anything you'd like to see on the front page of the wiki, or things that would be useful. Let me know before the weekend or hold your peace for another 20 years.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

In terms of the political spectrum, I did not claim jazz, swing and big band would come about because of an underground hipster-ish desire for liberalism or leftism - the political orientation of people is totally irrelevant to the underlying desire for something against the mainstream. If its the older generation that are the liberals, and the younger which are conservative, it would make no difference to the prerequisite social relations of a status quo that the youth are not pleased with, thus causing frustration and a desire for a new form of musical expression.

On top of this, I'd also add that the Confederate states (or, at the very least, Occitania) are an exception to the trend of Catholic peoples turning more towards religion, what with the huge popularity of leftism and liberalism, as well as Occitania's notable humanist-commune-liberal record.

@EQ: I had a suggestion, by the way. I noticed that for rockets you've separated them in the stats as part of a "Rocket Corps", but I think rockets should be put into the air force. Rocket Corps don't really exist, there were combined-artillery-air force branches, but rockets were historically (for obvious reasons) a part of the air force. Additionally, I think it cleans up the stats a bit, so that there isn't an odd extra section for something which intuitively you'd expect in the air force.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well, the problem is that the rocket corps is the foundation for something else, and for mechanic reasons needs to be separate for the future, assuming there is a future beyond 1960 and the world hasn't been ground into dust. I'll point out that, also historically, a number of nations maintained the air force under the jurisdiction of other branches of the armed forces for a long time, the USA the obvious and largest example among them. In NES, a number of nations continue to maintain the air force as a part of their other branches, Japan being the notable example in this. Regardless, I have kept Air Force as a separate stat, just for the ease of use. As stated, for mechanical reasons, the rockets must remain separate, and the reasoning for this I won't go into though it shouldn't take much to guess why for some of you. I will not confirm or deny any speculation on that.

Also, don't assume your whole population is on board with the liberalism thing, just enough to make the CCS happen, and a lot of this is likely due to the fact that united, the Confederation has been one of the few regions in Europe where neither Protestants or Catholics have a definite majority of numbers. Therefore, culture in the Confederation is likely to be considerably less well defined and monolithic as it would be in say Spain or Scandinavia.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

If there are yet to be disclosed reasons, then I suppose I can't critique the Rocket Corps section of the stats (though perhaps a rename to "Rocket Stockpile" would be more appropriate than "Rocket Corps")

Your quite right that much of the Confederation's population isn't liberal, and currently the subject I'm thinking of most is what would happen if a member-state elected a conservative government. They are however, liberal enough for me to credibly claim the effect of TTL post-Great War catholic religious fervour is not easily applied to the Confederation's catholics.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well, ironically the member state I'd be the most worried about if I were you is Occitania. The Catholics there are far more likely to have the same fervor as elsewhere due to the nation predominantly being Catholic with only limited Protestant influence. The others have all had enough time under the F-B confederation to have had a greater intermingling of religions and ideas. Occitania has been more (though not to the same degree as, say, Spain) monolithic than the other member states.

 

[spryllino]

I'm not sure that there necessarily ought to be any enormous problem with a member state of the CCS electing a conservative government unless that government decided to set itself against the Confederation - and I see no especial reason why conservative governments should set themselves against the Confederation, since through most of the First Confederation's history a lot of the states were governed by conservatives for most or all of the time. It's hardly unprecedented. Equally, it's often the case in politics that, just because a party didn't want to bring a measure in, they accept a rough consensus on the issue and move on. I would have thought that, by and large, this would be the most likely conservative reaction: "We didn't want the Confederation at the time, but we've agreed to it now and it would just provoke instability to back out; let's just do conservatism in regional government and try to advance conservative principles at a higher level too."

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Not stating that there will be a problem if a conservative government was elected by default, just saying that if a problem were to emerge, it'd probably be from Occitania than any of the others.

 

[Lord of Elves]

Scandinavians regard Denmark as a troublesome and vaguely terrifying sibling that wants to come in the night and skin them alive, then wear that skin at parties. You're all crazy and unpredictable as far as we're concerned.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Incidentally, here in Vinland we have a figure of speech that translates to 'As happy as a Dane'.

 

[Jehoshua]

In terms of the political spectrum, I did not claim jazz, swing and big band would come about because of an underground hipster-ish desire for liberalism or leftism - the political orientation of people is totally irrelevant to the underlying desire for something against the mainstream. If its the older generation that are the liberals, and the younger which are conservative, it would make no difference to the prerequisite social relations of a status quo that the youth are not pleased with, thus causing frustration and a desire for a new form of musical expression.

True, but the musical expression wouldn't manifest as jazz or swing or big band I don't think. Music does express certain values, certain understandings of the world, and so a more conservative and religiously oriented youth counter-culture (compared to the old liberal mainstream) would produce very different music. Perhaps a modernisation of folk music or classical music. Perhaps even some form of music incorporating chant and medieval polyphonics. It would be entirely up to players I think.

On top of this, I'd also add that the Confederate states (or, at the very least, Occitania) are an exception to the trend of Catholic peoples turning more towards religion, what with the huge popularity of leftism and liberalism, as well as Occitania's notable humanist-commune-liberal record.

As EQ noted, there is the protestant contingent in the old confederation which waters down the impact of the Catholic revival, and down south an Occitanian liberal orthodoxy (the record you speak of) fits precisely into what I was saying about the younger generation being more religious and conservatively inclined (thus why EQ notes Occitania would be the likely source of a conservative swing in the confederation considering it is homogenously Catholic)

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

We're moving to a new thread now, mostly because work on the wiki was being interrupted by RL, and I don't want to be waiting until December to actually be able to get some updates done for this one. The link is provided below:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=512682

 

[Immaculate]

OOC : What a obnoxious pope, never like people that reject philosophical views on sociological grounds. Kinda ties into the hollow thinking that if I can show something to be wrong(morally) then it´s wrong(in every possible way) by default. All this is the fault of platonic/ judeo christan nonsense about Truth and Morality being relevant to each other.

I hope Nietzsche gives me a cooky

...Prepare for the wrath of Jehoshua...

Actually Jehoshua will probably be pleased; Not everyone takes the time to read and properly analyze his posts. I had my 'not-hippies' just write him off as inaccessible due to the language used without actually trying to understand the verbosity.