Catalonia to vote on independence 9/11/2014

[Verbose]

The only way to change the fact that the world is interconnected, mutually dependent — and it's NOT some kind of inofficial secret this is how the EU fundamentally works — it's a feature (the conspiracy theories are entirely optional though), not a bug — is to "move fast and break things" as they say, i.e. revolution.

But then there tends to be prices to pay. Eggs need to be broken. The revolution is not a tea party. Etc. Though the way things now work it seems it might actually be possible it will be televised?

 

[Kyriakos]

The people who manage to write of basic Economy 101 as if they had just unmasked some huge conspiracy never fail to amuse.

If only the eu was discussing with a real and celebrated professor of economics, like Varoufakis, right? ^^
They don't care about the economics per se, Yeekim. It is all political and about some interest-groups, and about some country's popular vote if it comes to that.

 

[Hrothbern]

If only the eu was discussing with a real and celebrated professor of economics, like Varoufakis, right? ^^
They don't care about the economics per se, Yeekim. It is all political and about some interest-groups, and about some country's popular vote if it comes to that.

Are you referring to Varoufakis latest book on economy: Talking to My Daughter About the Economy ?

 

[Kyriakos]

Are you referring to Varoufakis latest book on economy: Talking to My Daughter About the Economy ?

Mostly referring to his book Talking to bring your daughter to the eu slaughter.

 

[Yeekim]

Indeed, how dare the politicians take their countries' popular vote into account?
Outrageous!

 

[Kyriakos]

Indeed, how dare the politicians take their countries' popular vote into account?
Outrageous!

Wait, you were very fast to abandon your 'it is about economics 101' line

 

[Yeekim]

This was primarily in relation to the "discovery" on how banks create money.

 

[JohannaK]

Political Prisoners in the heart of the EU in 2017. What a day.

 

[Kyriakos]

Political Prisoners in the heart of the EU in 2017. What a day.

Welcome to the show that still hasn't ended.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

Its really seems that the Barcelona government has dropped the ball on independence. Instead of capitalizing while they had the eyes and compassion of the world behind them, they decided to declare indy-except not, and then try to "negotiate" with Madrid. Madrid has absolutely no reason to negotiate from their perspective. They can just wait out the clock and just disband the Catalonian government when they get tired of this. Not declaring independence basically just grants Madrid and their position legitimacy. They have the EU on their side, yet for Puigdemont, his coalition in parliament is going to come undone because of his inaction.

Now the world doesn't really care anymore and Madrid will feel free to act as they wish.

 

[JohannaK]

I am starting to think so, that they will let 155 happen without finally declaring independence for good to build up more internal support, and keep the long struggle.

What good would have been a declaration of independence when Madrid would have come all-in and the rest of the EU would have justified it: "They unilaterally declared independence"?

The play here is to make patently obvious that Catalonia wants dialogue about this, and Madrid is the one refusing. Tomorrow there will be people in the streets again. We're in it for a while, and a possible route is to keep it up until the perceived instability makes a dent on Spanish debt interest.

Basically the idea is to keep the eye of the world on us.

 

[Yeekim]

The play here is to make patently obvious that Catalonia wants dialogue about this, and Madrid is the one refusing. Tomorrow there will be people in the streets again.

That is the only way this game is worth playing. I hope they'll come to the table eventually.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am starting to think so, that they will let 155 happen without finally declaring independence for good to build up more internal support, and keep the long struggle.

What good would have been a declaration of independence when Madrid would have come all-in and the rest of the EU would have justified it: "They unilaterally declared independence"?

The play here is to make patently obvious that Catalonia wants dialogue about this, and Madrid is the one refusing. Tomorrow there will be people in the streets again. We're in it for a while, and a possible route is to keep it up until the perceived instability makes a dent on Spanish debt interest.

Basically the idea is to keep the eye of the world on us.

Not all the Eu would. But - maybe - the catalonian people themselves weren't ready to pay the price of struggle? That, or your political leader just caved in without any fight at all, which is rather ignoble to say the least. And if all it takes to stop you is a phone call by 'a representative of Tusk' (sic), then how serious was your leader?

It is abit of a parallel to how uber-ignoble Czechia capitulated with NO fight against ww Germany when the latter threatened to bomb their precious Prague.

 

[Gen.Mannerheim]

What good would have been a declaration of independence when Madrid would have come all-in and the rest of the EU would have justified it: "They unilaterally declared independence"?

Because Madrid is not going to negotiate anyway. It is very rare, even in this age, for governments to be willing to actually talk to separatists. To do so gives their argument de facto legitimacy.

In the case of Catalonia; If you're playing the long game, you use "the popular will of the people" to declare independence knowing Madrid is going to use all of their might and authority to end the attempt. They will dissolve the parliament, revoke autonomy, and imprison leaders. However, this will galvanize support at home (and even bring over undecideds/opponents due to the revoking of liberties) while giving you a strong case internationally as an oppressed peoples.

By doing nothing and still letting the Spanish government move in just makes your movements look disorganized, adds weight to the argument that support was "manufactured", and allows Madrid to look like they're doing a good deed by cleaning up the mess.

Short of starting a shooting war, its gonna be hard to get Madrid to even talk to any Catalan leaders.

 

[JohannaK]

There is no capitulation. There will be no capitulation. If there was there would be nobody in prison today and we would not be cruising towards the application of 155. Notably Madrid seems increasingly reluctant to activate it, and it becomes clear that their strategy of intimidation wasnt meant to get this far. They thought the people would cave in and this would be over, but it will not. We have been getting out on the streets for seven years, and now that we are closer than ever we will cave? Wait and see.

 

[Yeekim]

It is abit of a parallel to how uber-ignoble Czechia capitulated with NO fight against ww Germany when the latter threatened to bomb their precious Prague.

Ahem. If we're in the business of bringing parallels, we have a lot better and more recent ones to recall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_bailout_referendum,_2015
Of course, this one had considerably higher turnout and was explicitly ruled to be legitimate by court, unlike Catalonian one...

 

[Kyriakos]

I think the estonian endless winter harmed your ability to draw a parallel, cause there is none there

 

[Yeekim]

A government campaigning for a referendum result, holding the referendum, getting the result and then ignoring it?
No, no parallels whatsoever.
Well, maybe I'm indeed being a harsh on Puigdemont with this comparison, since he hasn't quite thrown in the towel yet.

 

[Hrothbern]

Puigdemont may be cornered

But Madrid raised the eyebrows of many influential people and political leaders in Europe. They are not misled by technical legal arguments, they appall the lack of mature leadership and democratic behaviour. My God.... the catch up since Franco was not that succesful so far.

The EU has send over decades heaps of money to Spain to help develop it, including clear general EU guidelines to increase freedom and for example decentralisation.

It's like having someone that screwed up, but you still protect because of....... reasons.

 

[Kyriakos]

What about a poster ignoring the months in between getting that result and the eu bullies having the supposed pan-european bank stop money circulation in one of its economies, Yeekim.

Anyway, in case you didn't notice, i am trying hard to not oppose you, so make it a little easier. I'd hate to place you firmly on northern baltic land (slang for ignore)