Catherine of Russia - Who wants to Play?

[Harv]

Alphabet
to Turn 87

With Horseback Riding, what we should have done was research Animal Husbandry immediately after the Oracle run to Monarchy. This is the first time I have Oracled Monarchy. The times I have built Oracle before, it was on a much lower level where I would go for something with much more hammers. Now I understand why Monotheism is generally not the way to go after Priesthood and building the Oracle.

That window closed Turn 83. That's about when JC got his iron. Four turns should be enough for him to whip 8 Praets. Most likely, he will demand something.
How do you see that Ragnar has no metal? I see it now. Sit-Rep.

The build Warriors part I was not sure of. Now I understand better. Whip Warriors. Keep order. That window is open a few more turns. We should be getting iron soon.

Now that we have the Alphabet, here is the technology situation:

Spoiler :

The Vikings don't want to play right now. They also seem to be slightly behind the Romans. Is a gift in order, such as Mysticism?

What should we trade away for Iron Working? Is Alphabet a big deal? It would allow the Romans and Vikings to trade with each other.

So far, it looks like we can get:

Spoiler :

 

[Harv]

Mathematics
to Turn 93

I went with the deal above with JC. Alphabet and Monotheism for Iron Working, Archery, and Sailing. Supposedly we leave Ragnar behind. He came a couple of turns later running for help.

Spoiler :

It's 93 beakers.

In the mean time, we were hooking up the iron that was on our side of the border. They were a couple of turns ahead of us in Mathematics. I will guess they are making a beeline for Construction.

Here is our situation on Turn 93.

Spoiler :

The Romans grabbed another city site because we have not been building settlers recently. I was going to go 1se from that site and be on the river. We can still grab those Clams by settling that last spot on the south coast. Should we do this or should we focus on whipping Swords?

If we want to pursue a war, then the Vikings are an easier target. They have no metal yet, but they have horses. They will be fighting with Archers, Horses, and Catapults. The border city is on a hill, but I have not yet seen any culture. So maybe they will have a culture advantage of 20 by the time we get there.

How many catapults will we need to take the border city and their capital? How many swords? Going by a 50% ratio, is it 5 catapults and 10 swords? We will also need a couple of spears to defend against a horse.

The Romans - Well, I let that window for Horse Archers slip. Now they have Iron and their dreaded Praets. I would prefer to deal with them sometime in the Middle Ages, when they are no longer as relevant, because we will have Crossbows and Maces.

The Monotheism distraction - seems to be delaying us by five turns, if the objective is a catapult war. We get Judaism in return. So that will give us one or two more for the happy cap, for what that is worth. Technically, we also got Archery in exchange, as well.
The Alphabet distraction - It looks like this means we researched the equivalent of Sailing on the way to Iron Working.

We seem to be teching rapidly right now, so we have that going for us. I think we are looking at about 8 turns to Construction.

 

[Gumbolt]

Lack of focus. You beelined a religion now your scrambling to construction as JC now has metal. You also traded techs with an AI your planning to attack? Ragnar would make a much easier target here. Albeit he could just bribe JC in. A risk?

At cautious sooner or later JC will declare. If you do attack JC pillage his iron on T1 of the war. His UU will make any war very difficult. Praet in cities will be tough defenders. Axes with shock will work well against them.

If you really want an army quick here you should be chopping forest not farming plains tiles. You need to be all in and likely want barracks. Use cities with 5f or 6f resources to whip. Use workers to chop. Don't over whip till construction is in bag. You normally want a 50/50 mix. With cities building catapults to replace laost units. I would be trying to take down JC as you can likely pillage his only metal. Unless he settles the copper?

Yeka with a lighthouse will find those lakes nice.

Lack of focus is costing you dearly here.

 

[Harv]

That means Monarchy to JC is a bad idea, I take it.

 

[dankok8]

Forget about cities defended by Praets without Catapults. You've been warned. Even Axes will die in large numbers because Praets have high base strength and DO receive defensive bonuses so they will be a tough nut to crack. Honestly you have no need to war at all. With the best land on the map and how you've played thus far you're only gonna get stronger than your neighbours over time not weaker. Time is on your side. If I waited as long as you to attack I would play peacefully a bit longer maybe until Cuirassiers.

Not everyone is sharing religion. I would probably try to attack Ragnar and even bribe Caesar on your side if I was itching to fight. That's the best move.

 

[Harv]

Forget about cities defended by Praets without Catapults.

Well, at 8 turns from Construction, and no army yet, that is unlikely!
Until I got Gummy's feedback, I was thinking Rags was the easier target - IF I can keep JC at bay for long enough.
I was thinking if we both get to the Middle Ages, then we are on more even ground. Right now, he has a very powerful UU.

I still like the idea of Rags first, because he has no answer to a swordsman right now, except the horse archer is even if on open ground and no spears defending.

Honestly you have no need to war at all. With the best land on the map and how you've played thus far you're only gonna get stronger than your neighbours over time not weaker.

You might be one of the first giving positive feedback on gameplay, notwithstanding all the reloads. On the research side, the issue seems to be I am behind 5 or 6 turns from researching Monotheism. The worker side is now we even have mathematics and still not chopping out forests.

Anyway, I will wait a day. Right now, I am going through an allergy attack.

 

[dankok8]

Well, at 8 turns from Construction, and no army yet, that is unlikely!
Until I got Gummy's feedback, I was thinking Rags was the easier target - IF I can keep JC at bay for long enough.
I was thinking if we both get to the Middle Ages, then we are on more even ground. Right now, he has a very powerful UU.

I still like the idea of Rags first, because he has no answer to a swordsman right now, except the horse archer is even if on open ground and no spears defending.



You might be one of the first giving positive feedback on gameplay, notwithstanding all the reloads. On the research side, the issue seems to be I am behind 5 or 6 turns from researching Monotheism. The worker side is now we even have mathematics and still not chopping out forests.

Anyway, I will wait a day. Right now, I am going through an allergy attack.

Sad to hear about the allergy attack. Please get better bud! It's more important than civ.

Anyway I am not advising as much caution as Gumbolt. I say hit Ragnar and try to bribe Caesar against him too! That's my idea.

 

[Harv]

Sad to hear about the allergy attack. Please get better bud! It's more important than civ.

Are you getting snow, bitter cold, or are you in a warm part of the country?

I hear the northeast USA is getting snow. My home city is Winnipeg, by the way.

The only other thing I remember about you is you made a mod for the game for the Earth 18 map and you called it Starting Places.

 

[Harv]

Other questions I forgot to ask:

Should we get the Great Scientist first? Or the Great Prophet?
It looks like we have a choice. The Great Prophet shows up on Turn 114 if we do nothing and delay the scientists.
The great scientist points came from running scientists for lack of good tiles to work or not wanting to run plains forest.

Everything should be producing spears and axes and swords? That means no settlers for a while?
The site along the south coast to pick up the clam has not much else going for it.
Nidaros is better!

Construction will be around Turn 100 or 101. After that, I will spend tomorrow thinking......
The builder in my that will not die wants to go Calendar next, then Aesthetics and up the chain to Music.
I will look up how long it will take to get Metal Casting, then Machinery.
(Added: 10 Turns, plus 19 Turns)
While I am at it, I will look up what the great scientist wants to research.
(Added: Compass, Aesthetics)

 

[dankok8]

Are you getting snow, bitter cold, or are you in a warm part of the country?

I hear the northeast USA is getting snow. My home city is Winnipeg, by the way.

The only other thing I remember about you is you made a mod for the game for the Earth 18 map and you called it Starting Places.

Ahhh you're from Canada too. I'm from Mississauga which is right beside Toronto. I guess we are the warm part of the country... LOL

I didn't make the Starting Places mod although it's a good mod. I don't know why you thought I made it!

 

[Gumbolt]

I agree Vikings have better land and fewer cities. I do think the Romans can be taken down too. Once they lose the iron they lose metal units till they settle the copper. Pends how your religion spreads. Vikings can probably reach pleased. Romans would take more effort. You certainly want currency after construction for the economy.

You are 2-3 workers short here with all that forest. So maybe 2 more workers before more units. You could also take out that barb city for a worker.

Romans will grab quite a few sites you should of perhaps had secured. JC loves spamming useless cities.

 

[Harv]

I thought about it more. The issue is JC has had iron for 10 turns already. We are 8 more turns from construction and we will still have ti build at least 7 catapults.

We really only need the border city, but Rome is also a good prize. A chariot, ax and spear at the border can be ready to pillage the iron, which is right on the border. We can use just the chariot if we want to lose only one unit instead of three. After that, he will have a fixed number of Praetorians.

Added: Didn’t JC romance Catherine just before conquering Russia?

If JC were the human player, how many Praets would he be building?

 

[Gumbolt]

Vikings would be much easier and have much better land. Till he goes war mode he would likely use them as settler escorts. I would build up a decent stack and make your decision. If they start plotting then decide. Not sure JC land will allow him huge cities.

Currency will help you to beg 10 gold here.

 

[Fippy]

Reloading in non-competitive games is good overall (ask Shakabrade, who even signatured that ).
Unless you get bored of a map. But you prolly should try going for HAs early, honestly with those AIs close you can never go wrong with them on a leader like Cathy.
Early means tech paths like food - pottery - writing - HBR.

Oracle will not help you improve towards higher difficulties (if you want to go there), Cre leaders dun need Myst and you have plenty better stuff to research here.
Peaceful expansion or HAs, training with mounted units will get you very far in terms of diff levels.

 

[sampsa]

I agree with Fippy that there is nothing wrong with re-playing a map over and over, if you don't get bored and learn new strategies. I disagree with most of the last paragraph though. I think oracling monarchy is good here, if you intend to play peacefully, because otherwise it's hard to raise the -cap. Oracle doesn't play a major on deity, but we are far away from deity level play. I also think that learning how to peacefully build an empire is extremely important (because it's important in every game, while aggressive strategies are very situational), thus I encourage people who want to learn to mostly learn how to do it.

Looking at the game now.

 

[Harv]

Well, deity level must be a long way away if I just learned about how to set up a cottage economy.

 

[Fippy]

True Sampsa, Oracle here was certainly fine.

 

[Gumbolt]

I think myst route kinda forces you to skip AH to get pottery and BW up early. If you want 1500bc Oracle. Skipping pottery for Oracle would delay so many cottages here. Delaying 3rd/4th city really helps science here. That or settling them closer.

If you avoid monarchy then your looking for other happiness. IW would allow gems. So Alphabet has some value especially for trading IW and if building research. Very nice capital for that. Calendar is useful for happiness. A few resources around to settle.

Religion helps for happiness too.

HA route would not solve happiness here albeit you capture some great land. It's the kind of map where you want the Ai to clear jungle for you so you can improves certain resources.

A peaceful route to calendar could work here. No way as quick as Oracle. Limitation on this map is 100% happiness.

 

[dankok8]

I agree with Fippy that there is nothing wrong with re-playing a map over and over, if you don't get bored and learn new strategies. I disagree with most of the last paragraph though. I think oracling monarchy is good here, if you intend to play peacefully, because otherwise it's hard to raise the -cap. Oracle doesn't play a major on deity, but we are far away from deity level play. I also think that learning how to peacefully build an empire is extremely important (because it's important in every game, while aggressive strategies are very situational), thus I encourage people who want to learn to mostly learn how to do it.

Looking at the game now.

Yea. Peaceful building is my biggest weakness. Much of the time on Emperor and even on Immortal (especially if I'm playing a civ with a strong early UU), I can abuse the military aspect of the game so much that I can later win the game with subpar management of the economy. For instance if I secure space for 30 cities with my military by 500 AD which I've done in quite a few offline games then I'll win easily because I have so much more land than the AI but my ability to manage the economy sucks. On Emperor I can manage the economy well enough to win almost every time but not on Immortal. If I am restricted to not warring I struggle. I want to try and play more games peacefully. In fact when I try doing that I realize just how hard civ becomes when I can't simply crush an AI that is teching faster.

 

[Harv]

Parthian
to Turn 97

Now we fire up the forges and start building swords. An opportunity presented itself. The Roman scout ran next to the Parthian city and rolled well against the Archers.

Spoiler :

So scratch one Archer defending Parthian. We marched Swords in that direction. By Turn 97, we had two Swords that could attack and they were backed by two Chariots.

Spoiler :

We actually lost one of those battles. At 75%, that is going to happen almost half the time. So we had a chariot finish the job. 6% of the time, we lose both swords and for that, we had 2 chariots to finish the job. Things roll better when there is a back up plan.

So we lost one Swordsman and in exchange, we have a CR2 Swordsman.

It looks like we will have Construction on Turn 100. That's the good news.

The bad news:

Spoiler :

The Vikings have Iron in 7 more turns, perhaps another penalty for not expanding fast enough.

We have honest wars on our hands now! The big question is who do we get first?

I have been leaning more and more towards JC, because he has had the iron longer, is the bigger threat, and it might be very easy to take away that iron. The big drawback is those Praets.
Here is a question: How easy is it to lure them into open territory?

The problem is if we attack one, then the other might stab us in the backside.