Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

[Steph]

an exact parallel to words she told me, that would not be a display of intolerance.

Did you have a look at my avatar?

In case you didn't notice, it's a real picture of me...

 

[HighlandWarrior]

No point even trying. They pick and choose what they believe. We wont convince them.

eh im just trying to understand how peter was supposedly the pope.

@Zarn,

acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,


“ Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]


“ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and


“ A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

1 corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Very strange, peter himself and paul talking about Jesus as the foundation, as the rock, as the stone of the church. Are you telling me the holy spirit in peter was wrong?

 

[Zarn]

eh im just trying to understand how peter was supposedly the pope.

@Zarn,

acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’[a] 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,


“ Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[c]


“ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”[d]

8 and


“ A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”[e]

1 corinthians 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

Very strange, peter himself and paul talking about Jesus as the foundation, as the rock, as the stone of the church. Are you telling me the holy spirit in peter was wrong?

There is more than one rock. It clearly states Peter is the rock in the other section. It's too obvious.

 

[Milan's Warrior]

The document meantioned by the first poster is new to me, but the doctrine explained there is not new to me at all.
Indeed I have posted several times on this forum that the Catholic Church thinks that only the Church's own interpretation and not the book itself carries the will of god

 

[HighlandWarrior]

There is more than one rock. It clearly states Peter is the rock in the other section. It's too obvious.

I guess the holy spirit was confused when he was speaking through peter, the catholic church must be right.

 

[Meleager]

I guess the holy spirit was confused when he was speaking through peter, the catholic church must be right.

Plus they have the old roman pagans to back them up...

woops! I said about not bothering to try to convine them... Oh, well. I've never said i'm not a hypocrite.

 

[nonconformist]

One thing's confused me for a while.

As stated earlier in the thread, the Pope in infalliable in terms of doctrine.

Was Gallileo part of doctrine? Cos they only accepted a helicentric structure ten years ago, so were Popes before that wrong?

 

[Meleager]

I have a genuine question too:

Is the pope unfailable before he is elected, or only afterwards?

 

[thisispete]

One thing's confused me for a while.

As stated earlier in the thread, the Pope in infalliable in terms of doctrine.

Was Gallileo part of doctrine? Cos they only accepted a helicentric structure ten years ago, so were Popes before that wrong?

Here's something that I was surprised to learn about the whole heliocentrism thing last year. Nicholas Copernicus was a member of the clergy (he was canon at Frauenberg Cathedral). His patron, who enouraged him to publish On the Revolutions was Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa. He dedicated On the Revolutions to the Pope.

Galileo was as much a victim of internal Church politics as anything else - the Jesuits had already let Galileo off with a warning, but the Dominicans were pretty hard-core Biblical literalists at that time. He became a political football, but the punishment of house arrest proved to be a satisfactory compromise. He received a blessing from the Pope as he lay on his deathbed and is buried at the church of Santa Croce at Florence.

Galileo's books were taken off the Index of Forbidden Books in 1822.

 

[nonconformist]

But wasn't heliocentralism only "officially" accepted about 10 years ago?

 

[Milan's Warrior]

Is the pope unfailable before he is elected, or only afterwards?

Only after, and even then only when he says he is speaking "ex catedra", not at all times.
The concept has been introduced in the second Vatican Council (IIRC), so all what the popes said before does not count towards the infallibility thingy

 

[classical_hero]

Only after, and even then only when he says he is speaking "ex catedra", not at all times.
The concept has been introduced in the second Vatican Council (IIRC), so all what the popes said before does not count towards the infallibility thingy

That has to be a joke.

 

[cgannon64]

Infallibility when speaking "ex cathedra" is just a logical extension of other Church doctrine. We believe, for example, that there is something inherent in the actual rituals of the Church that has the power to cleanse sins, over and above the man who is performing them.

That the inherent power of the Church can overwhelm the personal weaknesses of the Pope and make him infallible goes along these lines.

(I, for one, have had trouble believing this doctrine.)

 

[CurtSibling]

The pope and his machinery are just control levers for the flock.

Humans are humans, and the pope craps and burps like any other man.

Such bowing to mere men and their imagined authority makes me sick.


.

 

[cgannon64]

Be sick elsewhere, then.

 

[CurtSibling]

Be sick elsewhere, then.

Your type does not give orders to me.

 

[Louis XXIV]

This is very, very old news.

Yeah, when my mother went to Catholic high school, she was told that evolution could be real and that genesis is more important for its symbolism (and shouldn't be interpretted as absolute fact). I'm not exactly sure when that was, but it was a long time ago (I bet she won't be too thrilled if she saw me writing this )

you forgot, he was voted spiritually infallible! and the first pope was constantine! in 208ad, there were no popes before constantine? no cardinals?

The pope originated as the Bishop of Rome. Since Rome was becoming the center of Christianity (mostly due to the works of people like Peter and Paul, who, unlike Jesus's brother James, believed that they should preach to the uncircumcised) he was starting to gain in influence. When Atilla the Hun attacked the Roman Empire, he went out alone to meet him and persuaded the "Scourge of God" to leave. This gave him considerable influence in the Church, but mostly with the Western Empire (the Eastern Empire would be ruled both with government and religion by the Emperor who ruled in Constantinople).

 

[cgannon64]

Yeah, when my mother went to Catholic high school, she was told that evolution could be real and that genesis is more important for its symbolism (and shouldn't be interpretted as absolute fact). I'm not exactly sure when that was, but it was a long time ago (I bet she won't be too thrilled if she saw me writing this )

Hell, it goes back to St. Augustine. In his Confessions he says that Genesis can be read symbolically. (He doesn't say it should exclusively be read so, but the idea is that old.)

 

[Meleager]

Infallibility when speaking "ex cathedra" is just a logical extension of other Church doctrine. We believe, for example, that there is something inherent in the actual rituals of the Church that has the power to cleanse sins, over and above the man who is performing them.

Wait a second. Its one thing to say that you can find god in more places then he bible. But this goes AGAINST the bible.

What ever happened to only being saved through god's grace? About no man being able to get into heaven through his own deeds? even if he does wear a giant toga.

This is downright pagan.

 

[cgannon64]

What ever happened to only being saved through god's grace? About no man being able to get into heaven through his own deeds? even if he does wear a giant toga.

Um, Catholic doctrine is that God revealed himself to us in other places. (Namely, Catholic writers over the centuries - not other religions.) So, you still can only get to Heaven through God.