Caveman 2 Cosmos

[raxo2222]

Knew I should not have updated twice today. smh

Good thing, that this file only matters on map generation - that is there is no way to "discover" water resources yet.

Geothermal Sea Vent and Methane can imo be on regular sea too.
Murex (represent Sea Snails of many genuses within the muricidae family) should not be in deep sea and ocean. those thrive in shallower water closer to land, ideally only in coast terrain, but I can accept regular sea too.

I'll add Sea to Geothermal Sea Vent and Methane too.
I can remove Murex from deep sea and ocean.

Clam, Crab, Pearls, Murex - Coast, Sea; Clam and Murex doesn't spawn in Polar variant.
Fish, Lobster, Shrimp - Coast, Sea, Deep Sea, Ocean
Whale - Deep Sea, Ocean, Trench

Manganese, Geothermal Sea Vent, Methane, Natural Gas, Oil - Sea, Deep Sea, Ocean (Natural Gas and Oil spawn on land too)
@Thunderbrd to extract first three resources you need Extraction Facility unlocked by Superstrong Alloys (Nanotech), I guess I could add Trench as valid place after all.

@KaTiON_PT I think something went wrong - notice all caps text, also links aren't clickable.

Spoiler :

This is part of the problem Sea has no meaning as far as depth is concerned it only means that you are over the horizon as far as sitting in a small boat is concerned. This means that all shell critters should be in shallow waters which could be coast, sea or even ocean. So "shelf" or possibly "sea mount" without regard to the navigation classification.

I guess we should define depth range, or just do some assumptions.
Coast < Deep Coast < Sea < Deep Sea < Ocean < Trench.
(Deep) Coast is one tile from land, (Deep) Sea is two tiles from land, and Ocean or Trench can be three tiles closest to land.

 

[Toffer90]

This is part of the problem Sea has no meaning as far as depth is concerned it only means that you are over the horizon as far as sitting in a small boat is concerned. This means that all shell critters should be in shallow waters which could be coast, sea or even ocean. So "shelf" or possibly "sea mount" without regard to the navigation classification.

Do you agree that the "Sea" terrain is shallower than the "Deep Sea" Terrain?
That "Deep Sea", if there should be any point in even having it in the game, is so deep that it limits shallow sea creatures such as sea snails?
Can you agree to the generalization that all plots with the "Ocean" terrain can be considered quite deep on average, if we pretend that it is quite far from mainland and that it have few to none islands and represent a large square area?

Do you agree that a bonus in a plot means that the resource is quite abundant across most of the area the plot represent?

I guess we should define depth range, or just do some assumptions.
Coast < Deep Coast < Sea < Deep Sea < Ocean < Trench.

I would rather generalize it like this:
Coast = Sea < Deep Coast = Deep Sea = Ocean < Trench
Three depth levels. Deep Coast may be scrapped if I can't get the graphic for it to look good.

 

[raxo2222]

Do you agree that the "Sea" terrain is shallower than the "Deep Sea" Terrain?
That "Deep Sea", if there should be any point in even having it in the game, is so deep that it limits shallow sea creatures such as sea snails?
Can you agree to the generalization that all plots with the "Ocean" terrain can be considered quite deep on average, if we pretend that it is quite far from mainland and that it have few to none islands and represent a large square area?

Do you agree that a bonus in a plot means that the resource is quite abundant across most of the area the plot represent?
I would rather generalize it like this:
Coast = Sea < Deep Coast = Deep Sea = Ocean < Trench
Three depth levels. Deep Coast may be scrapped if I can't get the graphic for it to look good.

So coast is deep as sea, and deep coast/sea is deep as ocean then.

Also trenches doesn't want to generate 3 tiles away from land, so it seems its very unlikely to get resource here.

 

[Toffer90]

Also trenches doesn't want to generate 3 tiles away from land, so it seems its very unlikely to get resource here.

I could set the mapscript to place them there without it causing any graphical glitches, we only have to add trench as an impassable terrain for sea animals that have ocean as an impassable terrain.
It doesn't hurt to allow a bonus on trench terrain as it will never be placed there anyways if the trench is more than 3 tiles away from land..

@KaTiON_PT I think something went wrong - notice all caps text, also links aren't clickable.

@KaTiON_PT:

I could only find 1 obvious mistake in your last commit.
What you did in "See Below" will not work.

void BoolExprHas::buildDisplayString(CvWStringBuffer &szBuffer) const
​

Let's go into details in PM's.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@ Raxxo,
Polar waters or ice sheets are not devoid of water or animal life. I hope you all get a consensus on this. Good Luck.

 

[raxo2222]

@ Raxxo,
Polar waters or ice sheets are not devoid of water or animal life. I hope you all get a consensus on this. Good Luck.

I know, water animal resources never were generated under Ice sheet (ice feature)
Crab, Pearls, Fish, Lobster, Shrimp, Whale can spawn in tropical, temperate and polar waters.
Clam and Murex are only ones, that aren't generated in polar waters.

I didn't change in what climate zone water animals can spawn.
That is Clam and Murex were always ones not spawning in polar waters.

 

[tmv]

@raxo2222 There are advantages to sea(food) resources even if there is no city able to work there: the Fishmonger (giving ). Especially early game this can be a very powerful building, and I think the harbor buildings give per different seafood resource.

 

[raxo2222]

@raxo2222 There are advantages to sea(food) resources even if there is no city able to work there: the Fishmonger (giving ). Especially early game this can be a very powerful building, and I think the harbor buildings give per different seafood resource.

I know, by the way water resources were always meant to spawn 3 tiles from land at maximum, and there was bug with World mapscript.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I know, by the way water resources were always meant to spawn 3 tiles from land at maximum, and there was bug with World mapscript.

As far as I know that has never been the case. The map scripts I use place them anywhere and there has been no change in that regard from vanilla.

 

[raxo2222]

As far as I know that has never been the case. The map scripts I use place them anywhere and there has been no change in that regard from vanilla.

I don't know what you do, but all mapscripts weren't generating water resources at distance bigger than 3 tiles.
C2C World doesn't do that now (it did for a while due to bug).

Mapscripts, that don't place water resources farther than 3 tiles from land:
World, Arboria, Archipelago, Balanced, Big and small, Continents, Custom continents, Donut, Fractal, Global highlands, Hemispheres, Inland sea, Islands, Pangea, Perfect world, Planet generator, Shuffle, Smart map, Tectonics, Terra, Three planets, Tilted axis.

Full of Resources is unsupported mapscript.
Lakes is inconclusive - it makes small enough lakes, so cities can work on all their tiles.
Mirror seems to be land only.
Perfect Mongoose took too much time, but it doesn't place resources too far away probably.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Coast = Sea < Deep Coast = Deep Sea = Ocean < Trench

That WAS what we came up with and agreed upon right?

As far as I know that has never been the case. The map scripts I use place them anywhere and there has been no change in that regard from vanilla.

I long ago noticed that Vanilla maps would not spawn any resources past 2 tiles out so as to not place anything that a city couldn't possibly obtain. That's definitely a legacy feature.

 

[Toffer90]

That WAS what we came up with and agreed upon right?

Yes, but raxo wouldn't know that, as well as many others, so I'm repeating the conclusions we arrived at back when I added the new water terrains.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Do you agree that the "Sea" terrain is shallower than the "Deep Sea" Terrain?
That "Deep Sea", if there should be any point in even having it in the game, is so deep that it limits shallow sea creatures such as sea snails?
Can you agree to the generalization that all plots with the "Ocean" terrain can be considered quite deep on average, if we pretend that it is quite far from mainland and that it have few to none islands and represent a large square area?

Do you agree that a bonus in a plot means that the resource is quite abundant across most of the area the plot represent?
I would rather generalize it like this:
Coast = Sea < Deep Coast = Deep Sea = Ocean < Trench
Three depth levels. Deep Coast may be scrapped if I can't get the graphic for it to look good.

That will do, but I still think we should eventually go with the three differing qualifiers so it becomes clearer in game.

I long ago noticed that Vanilla maps would not spawn any resources past 2 tiles out so as to not place anything that a city couldn't possibly obtain. That's definitely a legacy feature.

The point is resources have to be further out in the oceans for C2C because Sea Cities if nothing else.

We have also had a lot of discussion about water resources outside all city working areas, similar to animal and minerals on land, for sea resources. Not only owning a plot and getting the resource but also about the yield benefit being assigned to a city. I even have code from an old Warlords mod that will let you claim one resource, per nation, in this way.

Currently we only have one Extraction Facility (unit and plot improvement) for all mineral deposits (including Geothermal and Methane) in water. It has not changed since we started on C2C. Perhaps now it should. I suggest three improvemnents

• Extraction Facility (Manned) restricted to coast and sea inside cultural borders
• Extraction Facility (Remote) restricted to coast and sea, claims plot if outside cultural borders similar to watch tower does
• Extraction Facility (Automatic) requires advances in AI and high pressure, anywhere in the water either requires or helps with Venusian colonization.

 

[raxo2222]

The point is resources have to be further out in the oceans for C2C because Sea Cities if nothing else.

We have also had a lot of discussion about water resources outside all city working areas, similar to animal and minerals on land, for sea resources. Not only owning a plot and getting the resource but also about the yield benefit being assigned to a city. I even have code from an old Warlords mod that will let you claim one resource, per nation, in this way.

Currently we only have one Extraction Facility (unit and plot improvement) for all mineral deposits (including Geothermal and Methane) in water. It has not changed since we started on C2C. Perhaps now it should. I suggest three improvemnents

• Extraction Facility (Manned) restricted to coast and sea inside cultural borders
• Extraction Facility (Remote) restricted to coast and sea, claims plot if outside cultural borders similar to watch tower does
• Extraction Facility (Automatic) requires advances in AI and high pressure, anywhere in the water either requires or helps with Venusian colonization.

Sea cities won't be a thing for a while just like multimaps.

Manned Extraction Facility could be at Marine Architecture - late Information era tech.
Superstrong Alloys (Nanotech) now unlocks Extraction Facility, good place for Remote one.
Abyss Colonization (Transhuman), deals with various abysses (Cities deep in ocean represented by buildings or thick atmospheres - space colonies with surface city building) - this is where Extraction Facility (Automatic) could be placed.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sea cities won't be a thing for a whiles just like multimaps.

Multimaps is basically off the table. To much effort is going into the current space maps.

 

[raxo2222]

Multimaps is basically off the table. To much effort is going into the current space maps.

Well Snofru isn't modder

Also why you main modders like @Thunderbrd or @JosEPh_II won't play on those space maps?
You can accept lesser animal variety and misplaced latitude requiring buildings if you don't want use latitude rescaling modmod.

They are pretty much Large Earth Map with space added on top (124x55 = 6820 tiles Earth part, equivalent of new Small- 7776 tiles (Small is meant for 6 AIs)).
Also there are custom generated earth part space maps made by Snofru.

Of course you have to select and unselect stuff, since scenarios don't use your choice of settings.

It would be useful if you could save your favorite settings - options enabled/disabled, civs, leaders, speed and handicap to set them where applicable on scenario instantly.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The point is resources have to be further out in the oceans for C2C because Sea Cities if nothing else.

I can agree with that - and there could also be ocean improvements that claim the tile so that it can become part of the bonus count for the nation. I'm not sure exactly what lies between now and future sea cities. There would be 2 types, those that are submerged and those that float (we'd assume they'd be anchored so they would basically be artificial islands.) I know that the strategic portion of multiple depths is probably something we need to develop before this point and that would require being on top of numerous strategic AI programming elements so it could be worked into that picture properly, which is suuuuuper complex. So I don't think we could say it would be any time too soon we'd be able to accomplish either thing. We've made moves towards it so far which is cool. I'm not against planning for it now with bonus placements BUT the frustrating part in play now would be if you cannot access any important resources simply because they ALL spawned too far out.

Multimaps is basically off the table. To much effort is going into the current space maps.

Strongly disagree. There are numerous things I'm not going to worry about until MMs are further developed. The space maps are nothing but a stop gap for sandbox players and for testing map designs, units, arts, and so on for when multimaps is ready. It's actually not that far out BUT why bother with it at all until the game is truly playable up to that point? There's too many major problems to focus on resolving first imo. No point in spending months opening up the end part of the game when few will ever reach it due to other major frustrations along the way. May not be crashes as much now but far more imbalance issues.

Also why you main modders like @Thunderbrd or @JosEPh_II won't play on those space maps?

I don't find I can ever get that far into a game to make it worthwhile to bother and I don't like static maps much. I'm not yet trying to understand or further the late game design because the game design that preceeds it has too many issues to address.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Sea cities won't be a thing for a while just like multimaps.

As far as I know there is only one thing standing in the way of sea cities, graphics. For some reason people don't like what we have. TB has fixed the combat problems and the tags about Map Category fix the building and unit problem with a MAPCATEGORY_OCEAN.

We could do them now if we went with existing graphics.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As far as I know there is only one thing standing in the way of sea cities, graphics. For some reason people don't like what we have. TB has fixed the combat problems and the tags about Map Category fix the building and unit problem with a MAPCATEGORY_OCEAN.

We could do them now if we went with existing graphics.

I'm not sure exactly what lies between now and future sea cities. There would be 2 types, those that are submerged and those that float (we'd assume they'd be anchored so they would basically be artificial islands.) I know that the strategic portion of multiple depths is probably something we need to develop before this point and that would require being on top of numerous strategic AI programming elements so it could be worked into that picture properly, which is suuuuuper complex. So I don't think we could say it would be any time too soon we'd be able to accomplish either thing. We've made moves towards it so far which is cool. I'm not against planning for it now with bonus placements BUT the frustrating part in play now would be if you cannot access any important resources simply because they ALL spawned too far out.

Was what I said here confusing?

At what depth is the sea cities you intend to have? Underwater or surface?

If it's surface, there may be some code assumptions still to find and uproot that make it currently impossible for a settler to found a city in the ocean. A new boolean tag for a settler type that is dedicated to being able to do this might do the trick.

Would it create an island on that plot?

Storing units (and cities, and possibly improvements) at less than 0 on the Z axis of the map, which doesn't exist quite yet, would be necessary for determining how underwater cities would interact in combat. Underwater would be largely immune to air missions unless specifically designed for those.

How basic city graphics even initialize is a complete mystery to me so how to vary the graphics on that for a water city is equally a mystery. Anyone have any concept on how this works at all?

 

[fegeleinmarsch]

Is global warming in the mod?