Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Yudishtira]

The workhouse to work off your debts wasn't considered slavery (if done justly, it wasn't - of course it was never done justly), and survived abolition by many decades. Prisoner labour was not considered slavery (although it was!) and was another loophole.

Working conditions in factories were negligibly better than slavery for much of the 19th century and possibly beyond. The idea that "factories were the result of enlightened ideas regarding social justice and human rights" is a sick joke.

Similarly slave labourers' working conditions/quality of life did not improve with a stroke of the pen. Abolition drove wages down (due to increased supply of labour/demand for jobs) so that ex-slaves and never-slaves alike were in little better conditions (if at all) than under slavery.

 

[Snofru1]

Forced prisoner labour is part of the next steps in the Captive/Prisoner of War development but it is different to slavery.

So I´d suggest to not do the 2nd step before the 1st and keep the current Captive/Prisoner of War system alive by not forbidding factories with slavery and turn it off only after the new system has been established.
But anyway, this game is great even without slavery so I won´t use slavery anymore as it has become nearly worthless (for me).

 

[raxo2222]

Edit: added save

Don't forget to recalculate save too.
Your save is big - 18 MB size.
Looks like its Pits scenario - now Gigantic maps have ~13000 tiles - before I standardized sizes C2C_World mapscript generated maps this big on Huge setting.
This scenario has ~26000 tiles - 2x bigger than current Gigantic map size definition and not much bigger from original Gigantic size/

Tech leader seems to be in Atomic era, when it should be in Ancient era according to calendar.
As if research costs should depend on amount of cities and or calendar - I think Rhye's and Fall or Realism Invictus does that.
Or minimum distance between cities could be increased to three tiles.

And yep, you can build factories, you just failed to recalc save.

Spoiler :

Also factory needs city size of 6.

 

[arihant]

And yep, you can build factories, you just failed to recalc save.

Hmm dont know what went wrong, i recalculated with ctrl+shift+t , it all seemed ok but couldnt build factories with active slavery. Thanks for trying, at least i know problem is somewhere on my side. At the end i decided remove the file zDepend_CIV4BuildingInfos.XML and let slavery as it was before update, until you make some final decision about this topic.

As if research costs should depend on amount of cities

it should, stellaris game have nice solution with fast research when amount of research depend from number of planets and population

or calendar

definitely big no, too much trouble with balance and optimalization

Thank you once more time, this mod and moders are best

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Hmm dont know what went wrong, i recalculated with ctrl+shift+t , it all seemed ok but couldnt build factories with active slavery. Thanks for trying, at least i know problem is somewhere on my side. At the end i decided remove the file zDepend_CIV4BuildingInfos.XML and let slavery as it was before update, until you make some final decision about this topic.

Which is what I said do.

So I´d suggest to not do the 2nd step before the 1st and keep the current Captive/Prisoner of War system alive by not forbidding factories with slavery and turn it off only after the new system has been established.
But anyway, this game is great even without slavery so I won´t use slavery anymore as it has become nearly worthless (for me).

I would be willing to let slavery allow the building of factories if and only if there was a serious hit to science and culture in its place. Of the order of -70% and -50%!

The Captive implementation was supposed to be

As is up until mid-medieval era. At that point

• captive units which had exp in the top 10% exp of the loser's nation became Elite Captives.
• 90% of captives would be just like they are now. This value would reduce with your technology level (legal line of techs). This decreases down to about 25% by the Industrial Era. These are the "unskilled" warriors or the support "staff" of fighting units. (Remember in the Roman Army up to 1 in 10 of the counted fighting force were not actually fighters but slaves who collected the loot from the people that their masters killed!)
  
• the rest would be Military Captives that retained their knowledge. There would be various ways you could use these.

Elite and Military Captives could be used in a number of ways including but not limited to

• direct conversion to your side (re-education)
• converted into sleeper or spies for you back in their old country
• used to give you techs they had and you didn't
• trainers if their exp is larger than yours
• diplomacy eg trade for ransom, part of peace agreement, prisoner exchange etc.

Normal and Military Captives could also be turned into War Labour at a Prisoner of War camp but when the war between you and their nation ends they will need to either be sent back (= removed from game) or converted to some other unit.
​

The biggest problem with advancing this is that we need two promotions or something that allows us to keep track of where a unit originated and who it is loyal to. The "simplest" would be promotions but that would require a promotion for every nation available in game. Slightly simpler would be one promotion for each possible player slot in game. It would still require an extra loyalty property on the unit[/QUOTE]

 

[tmv]

used to give you techs they had and you didn't

I can see two possible problems with that:

• Many people can use technology without being able to explain that. Even a diode (perhaps the simplest electronic component) is difficult to understand if you don't just accept the current-voltage characteristic as a given, the bipolar transistor is even more difficult, although many people today are experts in using devices that totally depend on these electronic components (or variants that are certainly not easier to understand).
• What about technology the "home nation" developed after the unit was captured? Would it be necessary to include one promotion per tech (UNIT knows TECH), so that you could track what techs exactly this unit could pass on?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Currently I am thinking at tech the adjustment is made ie it is additive

• Medieval Lifestyle -5% and
  
• Invention -5%
• Renaissance Lifestyle -5% and
• Humanism -10%
• Critical Thought -10% (or Social Contract -5% and Scientific Method -10%)
• Enlightenment -5%
• Liberalism -5%
• Economics -5%
• Emansipation -5%
• Assembly Line -10%
• and so on...

I can see two possible problems with that:

• Many people can use technology without being able to explain that. Even a diode (perhaps the simplest electronic component) is difficult to understand if you don't just accept the current-voltage characteristic as a given, the bipolar transistor is even more difficult, although many people today are experts in using devices that totally depend on these electronic components (or variants that are certainly not easier to understand).
• What about technology the "home nation" developed after the unit was captured? Would it be necessary to include one promotion per tech (UNIT knows TECH), so that you could track what techs exactly this unit could pass on?

It would be based on their equipment and promotions only. Equipment would help your scientists towards new techniques and promotions are what the unit knows.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Currently I am thinking at tech the adjustment is made ie it is additive

• Medieval Lifestyle -5% and
  
• Invention -5%
• Renaissance Lifestyle -5% and
• Humanism -10%
• Critical Thought -10% (or Social Contract -5% and Scientific Method -10%)
• Enlightenment -5%
• Liberalism -5%
• Economics -5%
• Emansipation -5%
• Assembly Line -10%
• and so on...

I can see this working when applied globally from the slavery effects building. I would perhaps like to see the reduction in research reduced a touch and trade those penalties off for some severe penalties to GP rates. I think the main worldview building could apply a national GP rate penalty with new technologies, could it not? If nothing else, it could be the autobuilding prerequisite for a set of buildings with tech prereqs (as you show) that would then add a penalty worldview trait that adds the national GP rate penalty, if there isn't a tag for that on buildings. Probably way more complex than necessary but I'm thinking aloud here.

The loss of culture makes a lot of sense as well so I'd support that.

I'm also not against diminishing the value of factories and other industrial buildings if you have slavery - my main problem is when the strategy of keeping slavery becomes completely invalid. I feel that it should instead be another 'interesting decision' which comes with pros and cons that are hard to judge and depend a lot on numerous factors as to which is the best way for YOU to go forward. Like holding on to an iron rod that gets hotter and hotter the longer you hold it but if it's giving you enough power, getting burned by it is worth it. Furthermore, cutting off access to resources just doesn't seem realistic because slavery or no, the resources would still obviously have value and those running slavery would find an alternative means to derive them WITH slaves somehow. If we don't allow that, it just feels like an a-hole design move made for no other reason but to support a particular moral outlook regarding slavery.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is no XML mechanism for adjusting GP rates by tech as far as I can see. Not on buildings nor specialists. The autobuilding method would work.

The cutting off of resources should never happen. The only problem one is steel, as far as I know, and that is because the specialist buildings for preindustrial era steel were never implemented.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There is no XML mechanism for adjusting GP rates by tech as far as I can see. Not on buildings nor specialists. The autobuilding method would work.

The cutting off of resources should never happen. The only problem one is steel, as far as I know, and that is because the specialist buildings for preindustrial era steel were never implemented.

Factories are prereqs for a whole host of buildings that generate resources as well. Mind, it's improved because of the way we're going about it now, but from what I've been reading, there are still some stragglers... maybe only steel. As if you can really say 'only' to that.

Traits can influence GP rates and a building can give a 'bCivilizationTrait' trait (that gets removed if the building gets removed) so it can be a useful way to access more capabilities. Civilization traits can be as complex or simple as needbe and they are held out from the selection options - specifically intended to be a way to create global effects like these.

 

[arihant]

Which is what I said do.

Exactly, thank you

 

[Thunderbrd]

FYI, we're heading camping for the weekend so if you don't hear from me for a few days, it's not that I don't care, it's that I'm not in range. Enjoy the holiday y'all!

 

[IIHAAETTEAAHII]

I have downloaded version 38.5 from the link and unzipped it into my BtS Mod folder. I'm at BtS 3.19. However, when going Advanced -> Load a mod, C2C doesn't show up at all in the list.

Anyone has an idea how to fix this?

 

[raxo2222]

I have downloaded version 38.5 from the link and unzipped it into my BtS Mod folder. I'm at BtS 3.19. However, when going Advanced -> Load a mod, C2C doesn't show up at all in the list.

Anyone has an idea how to fix this?

Make sure it isn't in double folder like Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Caveman2Cosmos

Also mod folder name must be Caveman2Cosmos

 

[IIHAAETTEAAHII]

Make sure it isn't in double folder like Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Caveman2Cosmos

Also mod folder name must be Caveman2Cosmos

Not the problem, sadly. See attached picture.

Note that I have the GOG-version, not any kind of steam version. Might that be interfering? I see a steam file in the mod folder.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I can see this working when applied globally from the slavery effects building. I would perhaps like to see the reduction in research reduced a touch and trade those penalties off for some severe penalties to GP rates. I think the main worldview building could apply a national GP rate penalty with new technologies, could it not? If nothing else, it could be the autobuilding prerequisite for a set of buildings with tech prereqs (as you show) that would then add a penalty worldview trait that adds the national GP rate penalty, if there isn't a tag for that on buildings. Probably way more complex than necessary but I'm thinking aloud here.

The loss of culture makes a lot of sense as well so I'd support that.

I'm also not against diminishing the value of factories and other industrial buildings if you have slavery - my main problem is when the strategy of keeping slavery becomes completely invalid. I feel that it should instead be another 'interesting decision' which comes with pros and cons that are hard to judge and depend a lot on numerous factors as to which is the best way for YOU to go forward. Like holding on to an iron rod that gets hotter and hotter the longer you hold it but if it's giving you enough power, getting burned by it is worth it. Furthermore, cutting off access to resources just doesn't seem realistic because slavery or no, the resources would still obviously have value and those running slavery would find an alternative means to derive them WITH slaves somehow. If we don't allow that, it just feels like an a-hole design move made for no other reason but to support a particular moral outlook regarding slavery.

I am wondering if making changes to the specialists themselves rather than having autobuildings would be better for the AI and possible players.

EG population slaves -1 and -1. The same for production and commerce captives that become slaves.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have the changes to the Slaves and Slavery buildings ready to go. What I haven't done yet is the increase in costs for factories etc if you are running Slavery. I have two options

1. increase the cost for the buildings in a way that punishes large nations more than small nations, or
2. does the same but is not dependent on nation size (number of cities)

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have the changes to the Slaves and Slavery buildings ready to go. What I haven't done yet is the increase in costs for factories etc if you are running Slavery. I have two options

1. increase the cost for the buildings in a way that punishes large nations more than small nations, or
2. does the same but is not dependent on nation size (number of cities)

By cost, do you mean upkeep or diminished value or construction cost?

 

[tmv]

I have the changes to the Slaves and Slavery buildings ready to go. What I haven't done yet is the increase in costs for factories etc if you are running Slavery. I have two options

1. increase the cost for the buildings in a way that punishes large nations more than small nations, or
2. does the same but is not dependent on nation size (number of cities)

I think larger nations would be less sensitive to foreign developments, at least until the Internet (less people being even near any border), so larger nations might even - at least in the real world - feel a bit less pressure.

Then again, does the Russian Empire (one of the last European powers to have serfdom) confirm this hypothesis, or does the extremely violent end of the Russian Empire refute it? Would the long period of serfdom have been enough on its own to doom the Russian Empire, even without World War 1? And what kind of role did the immense size of that country (larger than the Soviet Union ever was, because of Poland and Finland) play in the downfall of the monarchy?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

By cost, do you mean upkeep or diminished value or construction cost?

I wa only thinking of construction costs. It is the only one that can be done so that it varies with or without slavery. The cost of one building can be affected by the existence of another. Unless I make a resource there is no way to adjust the value. There is no way to adjust maintenance costs at all as far as I can see.

I think larger nations would be less sensitive to foreign developments, at least until the Internet (less people being even near any border), so larger nations might even - at least in the real world - feel a bit less pressure.

Then again, does the Russian Empire (one of the last European powers to have serfdom) confirm this hypothesis, or does the extremely violent end of the Russian Empire refute it? Would the long period of serfdom have been enough on its own to doom the Russian Empire, even without World War 1? And what kind of role did the immense size of that country (larger than the Soviet Union ever was, because of Poland and Finland) play in the downfall of the monarchy?

Has nothing to do with external anything only with the population. Almost everything in game is based on a bigger nation having it better than smaller nations. Sometimes economies of scale work that way sometimes social inertia work against it. This is about social inertia. Building labour saving buildings is a big threat when the people you are displacing are not citizens but slaves who are likely to revolt if they get the chance.

Actually that brings up another idea I was thinking about and could possibly be applied along with this. Each building of a type you build reduces the cost of the next.

We may think there is little difference between Slavery and Serfdom but there isn't. A modern example would be women getting the vote but not being able to get a loan or buy property without the guarantee/permission of her husband or father.