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Caveman 2 Cosmos

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by strategyonly, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Forced prisoner labour is part of the next steps in the Captive/Prisoner of War development but it is different to slavery.
     
  2. arihant

    arihant Chieftain

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    Are you trying to tell me i can have deer, bear riders....da vinci, steam tanks.......but i cant have my slave city? :cry: china strongly disagree :nono::devil:

    btw still cant build factories with active slavery, tried to update svn again didnt help, tried to hold shift during start to clear cache didnt help
    cant find cache folder manualy in windows 10, any other ideas or my last hope is delete whole civ and reinstal?

    Edit: added save
     

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    Last edited: May 24, 2019
  3. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Maybe you have mod twice installed - in BTS mods and in my documents BTS.
    File is here: Beyond the Sword\Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Custom_World_Views\Slavery
    zDepend_CIV4BuildingInfos XML should look like this:
    Code:
            <!-- Severe penalties if slavery is active -->
            <BuildingInfo>
                <Type>BUILDING_STEEL_MILL</Type>
                <AndDependencyTypes>
                    <DependencyType>BUILDING_STEEL_MILL</DependencyType>
                </AndDependencyTypes>
                <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
                    <BuildingExtraCommerce>
                        <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_WV_SLAVERY</BuildingClass>
                        <CommerceType>COMMERCE_GOLD</CommerceType>
                        <iExtraCommerce>-20</iExtraCommerce>
                    </BuildingExtraCommerce>
                </GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
            </BuildingInfo>
            <BuildingInfo>
                <Type>BUILDING_FACTORY</Type>
                <AndDependencyTypes>
                    <DependencyType>BUILDING_FACTORY</DependencyType>
                </AndDependencyTypes>
                <GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
                    <BuildingExtraCommerce>
                        <BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_WV_SLAVERY</BuildingClass>
                        <CommerceType>COMMERCE_GOLD</CommerceType>
                        <iExtraCommerce>-100</iExtraCommerce>
                    </BuildingExtraCommerce>
                </GlobalBuildingExtraCommerces>
            </BuildingInfo>
    Upload save.
     
  4. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Agree. Furthermore, economics is all about getting things as cheap as you can. There is no point where something is 'too cheap' when you are in competition with other businesses to manufacture and provide a good to market as cheaply as possible. Human labor is not cheap usually even if we're talking slavery. You still have to feed, house, and maintain those people and people come with costs as a result. So even though slavery might be cheap'er' labor, it never hurts to make cheap'er' labor cheaper still. There would always have been the motive to industrialize whether you had slaves or not, and there dang sure isn't any reason to not care to obtain further goods for society just because you have slaves still.

    Abolition may have spurned the need for factories, but I think it was just that it was happening at the same time as a social awakening to human rights and the realization that with our new industrialization technologies, we could enable people to have enough value that they could support themselves rather than having to rely on an owner to do it for them. Remember that slavery in a more recent sense came about primarily from people becoming too poor and incapable to provide wealth for themselves that they had to sell themselves into slavery to survive. As we now start moving into a great surge in automation and AI, we may well see people lose the value in their labor enough to be again incapable of supporting themselves and needing to resort to selling themselves back into slavery to survive again and at that point, even then their labor value may not be enough for the wealthy to consider it valuable enough to own them so people just start to starve or we are forced to rely on government to redistribute wealth.

    I completely see how science and GP rates should be greatly diminished in a slaving society. The traits system somewhat reflects some of those insights where it can.
     
  5. Yudishtira

    Yudishtira Spiritual/Creative

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    The workhouse to work off your debts wasn't considered slavery (if done justly, it wasn't - of course it was never done justly), and survived abolition by many decades. Prisoner labour was not considered slavery (although it was!) and was another loophole.

    Working conditions in factories were negligibly better than slavery for much of the 19th century and possibly beyond. The idea that "factories were the result of enlightened ideas regarding social justice and human rights" is a sick joke.

    Similarly slave labourers' working conditions/quality of life did not improve with a stroke of the pen. Abolition drove wages down (due to increased supply of labour/demand for jobs) so that ex-slaves and never-slaves alike were in little better conditions (if at all) than under slavery.
     
  6. Snofru1

    Snofru1 Chieftain

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    So I´d suggest to not do the 2nd step before the 1st and keep the current Captive/Prisoner of War system alive by not forbidding factories with slavery and turn it off only after the new system has been established.
    But anyway, this game is great even without slavery so I won´t use slavery anymore as it has become nearly worthless (for me).
     
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Don't forget to recalculate save too.
    Your save is big - 18 MB size.
    Looks like its Pits scenario - now Gigantic maps have ~13000 tiles - before I standardized sizes C2C_World mapscript generated maps this big on Huge setting.
    This scenario has ~26000 tiles - 2x bigger than current Gigantic map size definition and not much bigger from original Gigantic size/

    Tech leader seems to be in Atomic era, when it should be in Ancient era according to calendar.
    As if research costs should depend on amount of cities and or calendar - I think Rhye's and Fall or Realism Invictus does that.
    Or minimum distance between cities could be increased to three tiles.

    And yep, you can build factories, you just failed to recalc save.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4BeyondSword 2019-05-24 21-28-40-59.jpg

    Also factory needs city size of 6.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  8. arihant

    arihant Chieftain

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    Hmm dont know what went wrong, i recalculated with ctrl+shift+t , it all seemed ok but couldnt build factories with active slavery. Thanks for trying, at least i know problem is somewhere on my side. At the end i decided remove the file zDepend_CIV4BuildingInfos.XML and let slavery as it was before update, until you make some final decision about this topic.
    it should, stellaris game have nice solution with fast research when amount of research depend from number of planets and population
    definitely big no, too much trouble with balance and optimalization

    Thank you once more time, this mod and moders are best :thumbsup:
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Which is what I said do.
    I would be willing to let slavery allow the building of factories if and only if there was a serious hit to science and culture in its place. Of the order of -70%:science: and -50%:culture:!

    The Captive implementation was supposed to be
    As is up until mid-medieval era. At that point
    • captive units which had exp in the top 10% exp of the loser's nation became Elite Captives.
    • 90% of captives would be just like they are now. This value would reduce with your technology level (legal line of techs). This decreases down to about 25% by the Industrial Era. These are the "unskilled" warriors or the support "staff" of fighting units. (Remember in the Roman Army up to 1 in 10 of the counted fighting force were not actually fighters but slaves who collected the loot from the people that their masters killed!)
    • the rest would be Military Captives that retained their knowledge. There would be various ways you could use these.
    Elite and Military Captives could be used in a number of ways including but not limited to
    • direct conversion to your side (re-education)
    • converted into sleeper or spies for you back in their old country
    • used to give you techs they had and you didn't
    • trainers if their exp is larger than yours
    • diplomacy eg trade for ransom, part of peace agreement, prisoner exchange etc.
    Normal and Military Captives could also be turned into War Labour at a Prisoner of War camp but when the war between you and their nation ends they will need to either be sent back (= removed from game) or converted to some other unit.
    The biggest problem with advancing this is that we need two promotions or something that allows us to keep track of where a unit originated and who it is loyal to. The "simplest" would be promotions but that would require a promotion for every nation available in game. Slightly simpler would be one promotion for each possible player slot in game. It would still require an extra loyalty property on the unit[/QUOTE]
     
  10. tmv

    tmv Chieftain

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    I can see two possible problems with that:
    • Many people can use technology without being able to explain that. Even a diode (perhaps the simplest electronic component) is difficult to understand if you don't just accept the current-voltage characteristic as a given, the bipolar transistor is even more difficult, although many people today are experts in using devices that totally depend on these electronic components (or variants that are certainly not easier to understand).
    • What about technology the "home nation" developed after the unit was captured? Would it be necessary to include one promotion per tech (UNIT knows TECH), so that you could track what techs exactly this unit could pass on?
     
  11. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    Currently I am thinking at tech the adjustment is made ie it is additive
    • Medieval Lifestyle -5%:science: and :culture:
    • Invention -5%:science:
    • Renaissance Lifestyle -5%:science: and :culture:
    • Humanism -10%:culture:
    • Critical Thought -10%:science: (or Social Contract -5%:culture: and Scientific Method -10%)
    • Enlightenment -5%:culture:
    • Liberalism -5%:culture:
    • Economics -5%:science:
    • Emansipation -5%:culture:
    • Assembly Line -10%:science:
    • and so on...

    It would be based on their equipment and promotions only. Equipment would help your scientists towards new techniques and promotions are what the unit knows.
     
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  12. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I can see this working when applied globally from the slavery effects building. I would perhaps like to see the reduction in research reduced a touch and trade those penalties off for some severe penalties to GP rates. I think the main worldview building could apply a national GP rate penalty with new technologies, could it not? If nothing else, it could be the autobuilding prerequisite for a set of buildings with tech prereqs (as you show) that would then add a penalty worldview trait that adds the national GP rate penalty, if there isn't a tag for that on buildings. Probably way more complex than necessary but I'm thinking aloud here.

    The loss of culture makes a lot of sense as well so I'd support that.

    I'm also not against diminishing the value of factories and other industrial buildings if you have slavery - my main problem is when the strategy of keeping slavery becomes completely invalid. I feel that it should instead be another 'interesting decision' which comes with pros and cons that are hard to judge and depend a lot on numerous factors as to which is the best way for YOU to go forward. Like holding on to an iron rod that gets hotter and hotter the longer you hold it but if it's giving you enough power, getting burned by it is worth it. Furthermore, cutting off access to resources just doesn't seem realistic because slavery or no, the resources would still obviously have value and those running slavery would find an alternative means to derive them WITH slaves somehow. If we don't allow that, it just feels like an a-hole design move made for no other reason but to support a particular moral outlook regarding slavery.
     
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  13. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    There is no XML mechanism for adjusting GP rates by tech as far as I can see. Not on buildings nor specialists. The autobuilding method would work.

    The cutting off of resources should never happen. The only problem one is steel, as far as I know, and that is because the specialist buildings for preindustrial era steel were never implemented.
     
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Factories are prereqs for a whole host of buildings that generate resources as well. Mind, it's improved because of the way we're going about it now, but from what I've been reading, there are still some stragglers... maybe only steel. As if you can really say 'only' to that.

    Traits can influence GP rates and a building can give a 'bCivilizationTrait' trait (that gets removed if the building gets removed) so it can be a useful way to access more capabilities. Civilization traits can be as complex or simple as needbe and they are held out from the selection options - specifically intended to be a way to create global effects like these.
     
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  15. arihant

    arihant Chieftain

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    Exactly, thank you :)
     
  16. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    FYI, we're heading camping for the weekend so if you don't hear from me for a few days, it's not that I don't care, it's that I'm not in range. Enjoy the holiday y'all!
     
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  17. IIHAAETTEAAHII

    IIHAAETTEAAHII Chieftain

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    I have downloaded version 38.5 from the link and unzipped it into my BtS Mod folder. I'm at BtS 3.19. However, when going Advanced -> Load a mod, C2C doesn't show up at all in the list.

    Anyone has an idea how to fix this?
     
  18. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

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    Make sure it isn't in double folder like Mods\Caveman2Cosmos\Caveman2Cosmos

    Also mod folder name must be Caveman2Cosmos
     
  19. IIHAAETTEAAHII

    IIHAAETTEAAHII Chieftain

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    Not the problem, sadly. See attached picture. c2c.PNG

    Note that I have the GOG-version, not any kind of steam version. Might that be interfering? I see a steam file in the mod folder.
     

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    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  20. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    I am wondering if making changes to the specialists themselves rather than having autobuildings would be better for the AI and possible players.

    EG population slaves -1:science: and -1:culture:. The same for production and commerce captives that become slaves.
     

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