CBob01 AWM Training Day Game

[Norton II]

Here's the German front. There were a lot more units there when I started:

The Babylonian front (not a big problem right now):

If this were Civ4, Philly would be an ideal Great Person farm, especially if moved 1 E:

But these are the guys I'm really worried about, even though we haven't met them yet (and they've got two more). The good news is that they've already had their GA from the 'Mids and the GW:

 

[Aabraxan]

I've skimmed the turnlog. Good lord, man! That's a killing spree! . . . and I like it. . . .

Here's hoping that the Aztecs have spent all their shields on wonders and haven't bothered with all those pesky military units that you have to spend so much time moving around.

 

[Aabraxan]

I'm looking at the save now, and I've got a couple of questions, Norton II. There's a stack of cats and a mace between YarYar and Silly St. Pete's. Do you happen to remember what you were doing with them? Were they headed somewhere, like to kill that German rMace on the hill, or somewhere else? Also, I see that Halifax is empty. Is anyone dropping off units in that area? It was a thorn in my side when last I played a set, as I recall. Finally, I see that Somewhere City and Murmur are both empty. Were you baiting the AI with those?

As to what to do with the next leader, I think the Pentagon may be our best bet. I've never noticed any difference in my games with the Heroic Epic, but the Pentagon would strengthen our armies.

 

[Norton II]

I'm looking at the save now, and I've got a couple of questions, Norton II. There's a stack of cats and a mace between YarYar and Silly St. Pete's. Do you happen to remember what you were doing with them? Were they headed somewhere, like to kill that German rMace on the hill, or somewhere else? Also, I see that Halifax is empty. Is anyone dropping off units in that area? It was a thorn in my side when last I played a set, as I recall. Finally, I see that Somewhere City and Murmur are both empty. Were you baiting the AI with those?

As to what to do with the next leader, I think the Pentagon may be our best bet. I've never noticed any difference in my games with the Heroic Epic, but the Pentagon would strengthen our armies.

The cats and the mace were headed toward YarYar to join the other units already there. There was talk of building another city somewhere in that area (possibly on the hill near the volcano), and I thought it might be useful to have those units, and some others, accompany the settler in YarYar to its destination. Also, we'll probably be hitting the Germans soon, so it won't hurt to have those units near the front. As for Halifax, nobody's dropped off units there during my set, but there are several units that can reinforce that city. For example, the spear and cat in Yakkity Yakutsk could be moved there, then either the spear or the pike in Gold Hill could go to YakYak. SWC and Murmur are empty because the units were needed elsewhere, like in Hattusas, where the Babs have been sending most of their units. We're stretched a little thin in places and will not have reinforcements for a few turns yet, so some cities in the interior may have to be empty for a little bit. Fortunately, the AIs have no fast units to take advantage of this situation, but we'll have to watch carefully to make sure that they don't sneak past our forces at the front.

 

[CommandoBob]

Roster:

• Phaedo
• CivActuary
• Norton II - just played
• D'Artagnan59 - UP!
• Aabraxan - on deck
• CommandoBob - warming up

Hey, D'Artagnan59, glad to see you're back! If you've gotten caught up with our progress, how about a strategy post on what you think you should do on your turns (what cities to attack, where to build new cities, how to use armies, etc.).

Some things to consider: The Hitties and the Americans are down to two cities. In the next 10 turns, should we plan on removing them from the game (capturing four cities) or just box them in and focus on bringing Germany and Babylon down to only two cities?

We get out of anarchy in two turns, so we can build things again. Where should be start our next library?

We cannot build Spears anymore, so what do we do with our current Spear force? Leave them on the front line or replace them with Pikes and use the Spears to keep our people happy? Or something else?

Do we have a city around size 3 or 4 that we can use as a settler factory, (which will let us claim more territory and support more troops)?

Some of these things we have briefly discussed, others not at all, but we really want to hear what you think. You've been gone for a while and that means you don't have the same tunnel-vision that we might have.

Oh, and if you have questions of your own, don't hesitate to ask (but be sure and ask, even if it does sound silly). This is a much harder game than I thought it would be. Which has made me rely on the insight of my teammates a whole lot more than I expected (and I am very grateful for those insights! )

 

[Phaedo]

I just played a shadow of Norton's set. I still haven't read his (but I will). I just wanted to see if I was thinking realistically about our position. It might be worth reading because I think it shows that we are really in the position to seriously focus on controlling our continent. I only did it because I wanted to play and have been thinking about this game for the last couple of days. I'm going to put it all in a spoiler but I don't think I learned anything we didn't already know. It also may help us decide what to do with the new leader (is that spoiler info or just experience?)

Anyway here it is

Spoiler :

I got home from work with few hours to myself and was going to read Norton's turn log but decided to play a shadow set instead. First, because I wanted to play, don't have a solo game going and am not up for a while in any of the SGs I'm registered in. Second, because I wanted to test if my feeling about the game is on target.
It seems to me we are now the dominant civ on our continent and should get more aggressive about claiming it for our own. I mean no criticism of Norton's set (I haven't read it so I can't criticize)

IBT Krauts take out a spear in NHT
T1
YakYak and NHT buid Pikes. NHT to another one and YakYak to a MI
Redline the Bab bow and MI that moved next to Hattusas
Pillage the German iron and start back to the other one
Pillage the mine in the Bab lands with the other army and start heading back to Nineveh (I think I can raze it with the army)
Kill a German MI near YarYar (1-1)
Kill a US archer with a WMosc sword(2-1)
Use WMosc's cats to yellow the german pike on our horse
Redline and kill a German MI next to JB(3-1)
Move the rest of the cats to redline the pike on the horse. Take it our with the 3/4 MI next to it(4-1)
Move the JB cats in position to bomb the stack next to NHT
Bomb the stack but one MI is still at 3/4. Move a pike over the cats and Mi for protection
Attack the stack with a MI but lose(4-2)
Upgrade a vSword in JB
raod the cow next to Hattusha and sendf the sword back. Take all the stack inthe city and move it south leving one spear back
Take out the Bab bow next to the old Hittite cap but lose to the MI (5-3)
Take him out with a MI from Hattusas(6-3)
Take Zariqum (7-3)
Strt roading between GH and Omsk

IBT Take out 2 Bab units and 1 German one that attack (9-3)

T2
Moscow build a Settler and starts another one
Take out a Bab bow near Hattusha and send the stack south again
Redline the 2 German units next to JB and kill the pike with an MI (10-3)
Move the army and all the cats near Hattusas to the hill next to Tarsus. Put a horse on the only other road leading to Somewhere

IBT Hittite LB takes out the horse (shoot! I was hoping it would retreat) (10-4)

T3
Bomb Hattusas and take out a LB (11-4)
Kill German horse near JB (12-4)

IBT Lose a spear in Somewhere. The Aztecs build the GL

T4
Redline and kill 2 MIs heding to NHT (14-5)
Kill 2 US archers near SS (16-5)
Kill 3 pikes in Tarsus (19-5). Only a spear left
Build the FP in Hattusas just for fun
Kill 2 Bab MIs and a bow near Elipi (22-5)
Buils Coast City S of Hattusha
Raze Nineva
Kill 2 Hittite LBs near Somewhere

IBT 2 pikes that I moven into the mountains kill 2 German MIs (24-5)

T5
Murmur riots. I guess I wasn't paying attention and only focusing on war
Take Tarsus and kill a straggling LB (25-5)
Kill a US archer (26-5)
Send a stack of 4 cats, 2 pikes an MI and a horse with the settler N of JB. We should have our high ground perimeter in 2 turns.

IBT Well, I guess the army was too weak because the Hittes attacked and killed it (26-8). If it had been in the city we would have been safe

T6
Kill a pike and LB near Tarsus and get a leder to replace the army I lost.
Kill 3 German pikes and an MI near YarYar (31-8)

IBT Kill an attaking German MI (32-8). A 3MC attacks Hattusas but withdraws

T7
YakYak riots (I really don't learn form my mistakes :arggg
Kill a US archer (33-8)
Turn down the science slider and we will get 92 gold next turn

IBT Learn Monarchy and kill a German MI that attacks the stack by the volcano

T8
Buils Fire Lake N of the volcano
Kill 2 bab bows (36-8)

IBT A horse kills a Bab bow!

T9
Build Northern Iron
Move into position to attack 3 cities next turn
Revolution (6 turns of anarchy)! Cycle through cities to aviod revolt

IBT Kill a 3MC at Hattusas (37-8)

T10
Raze Frankfurt (that should stop the constant reconnection of iron)
Raze Elipi (with the loss of an MI) (37-9)
Bomb Bremen, don't do much damage but attack anyway s this is the end of the set and it doesn't count (lose 2 MIs and kill a couple of spears but don't take it)
Raze Haran with an MI army

Well, I definately made some mistakes but I am more convinced than ever that we can be more agressive. At the end of anarchy, we would be ready to build only a few units as replacements. The MI army was so much more efferctive than the sword armies are I would suggest we use Norton's leader for one and not worry about the pentagon (although building it with the next leader might be a good idea). The important thing is to use the roads for the cats to get them inot attack position and then cover them with a pike (the Ai won't attack with a weakened unit). Moving a couple of pikes with an MI into the mountains after the Germans were retreating was really effective and moving the settler up under cover at the same time was great because it expanded our influence enough that they had to retreat all the way to Bremen to be safe. That took the pressure off NHT nd JB and the cats could move to YarYar, which was never in danger of being taken. I fely I should have had a few more MIs moving towards Hattusas earlier as I was spread a bit thin after taking Tarsus. Razing Nineva and The german city was effective. That army in Bab land can effectively gut them and should. I think moving the stack out of Hattusha after redlining the Bab units pushed the front effectively as well. Here's the thing, we have a huge amount of cats. Using them just to defend cities is wasteful. We have destroyed the Bab production and seem to be disrupting the German production well. We won't be seeing AI SODs so we should get our stacks out into the open with a bit of defence. No one has knights so we will ALWAYS get the first attack with our cats if we follow the injured AI out of our boundries. The horses are great for taking out redlined MIs and returing to the saftey of the stack.

 

[CommandoBob]

Good turns, Phaedo. Too bad they weren't 'real' turns.

You make a good point about our catapults. We've mainly used them on defense, so far. But as we begin to head out and seek to capture cities we need cats and trebs on the front lines to batter the enemy defenses. And to protect us.

One thing I noticed in C3C (and don't remember this being true in PTW) is that a catapult can both attack and defend on the same turn. Somewhere in Civ (maybe Civ II) it could either attack or defend, but not both. If it was used to attack something, it had thrown its one rock and did not have another ready to throw until the next turn.

Since we are now controlling the pace of the game, we need to gather up our catupults and get them to the front, where they can work their magic.

(It occurs to me now that the cats in our cities were on the front line. Our cities were the front line. But no longer.)

 

[Phaedo]

(It occurs to me now that the cats in our cities were on the front line. Our cities were the front line. But no longer.)

I think you have hit it. We are at the transition now and the faster we make the transition from defence to offence the faster we will start leading. From Norton's screenshots (I still haven't read the log ), it seems that the AI have blown their load. We ought to have the defences to cover them against the odd attack (and as they don't have knights (yet?) we don't need to worry too much) so the stacks should move out from the cities to pushthe front

 

[CivActuary]

Just some random thoughts

- The leader. If we are going to open up a 2 front war, I would want to make a fourth army, so we can have 2 armies focusing on each of our opponents. Maybe one to keep their lands pillaged, and one to attack and capture cities.

- The Hittities. I would eliminate them. If for no other reason than that it eliminates the flip chance on the cities we have taken.

- Americans. I could go either way. They are hardly more than a nuisance right now, but if we decide we want their land, we can KO them at any time.

- It is now 850 AD. The sooner we get our continent under control, the better. Before we know it we could see explorers from the other continent, remember they are not bogged down (presumably) by so much war in their tech pace.

 

[Phaedo]

I absolutely agree that we want at least 2 armies to go after the Germans and that we want to take out the Hittites. I do think we could wage an effective war against the Babs with one army and a good stack of mixed forces. I also think we need to control the continent before the other continent gets magnetism. If our rivals on our continent make contact while they still have some production ability it could make life quite complicated. My guess is that we won't be ready for a proper invasion of the beta continent until we get transports with our current position. With that in view, it may be a good idea to eventually want to keep an empty army in reserve if we can get another leader (maybe the HE might be a good build).

 

[Aabraxan]

Some things to consider: The Hitties and the Americans are down to two cities. In the next 10 turns, should we plan on removing them from the game (capturing four cities) or just box them in and focus on bringing Germany and Babylon down to only two cities?

Won't eliminating civs begin to decrease tech costs? If so, I think elimination would work in our favor more than crippling them.

 

[Norton II]

Won't eliminating civs begin to decrease tech costs? If so, I think elimination would work in our favor more than crippling them.

If eliminating civs affects tech costs, it would increase them, right? Still, we should definitely take 'em out, if only to avoid flips. And once we have enough science farms running, tech costs won't be too much of an issue. Not only that, but we'll probably meet the other guys pretty soon after we control our continent (if not before), so that'll bring the costs back down, assuming they go up in the first place.

Also, based on Phaedo's "shadow" set, I cast my vote for a mace army. We should have no problem advancing against Germany after that. And Phaedo's right--the AI's definitely gassed, or getting there anyway. Both the big guys are in republic right now, so war weariness must be killing them, especially since we've disconnected their luxes (except for the German gems--let's fix that) and pillaged so much of their land. Don't their cities look awfully small these days?

 

[Phaedo]

I think I read somewhere that although other civs having techs lowers the cost to us, eliminating civs effectively lowers the cost (possibly the Madascar game with TomTom, Zerkses and Buce). The way I understand it there are less competetors for the tech so the seller has less bargaining power (if that doesn't sound like classic Sid Myers I don't know what does).

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't express it well and so obviously don't understand it correctly, but my understanding is that once you eliminate civs, the cost goes down

 

[TimBentley]

lurker's comment: The tech cost is reduced with fewer civs as long as the tech you're researching is already known by someone else. If the civ eliminated knew the tech you're researching, the cost for that tech would increase. Here is the formula for tech cost if you're curious. The key factor is (1-N/[CL*1.75]).

 

[D'Artagnan59]

I proudly declare:

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

 

[Aabraxan]

Excellent, D'Art. Glad you're back.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

I have got a sweep of business.

Skip me.

 

[Aabraxan]

I have got a sweep of business.

Skip me.

I guess that makes it mine.

 

[Aabraxan]

The details of my preflight assessment are listed below. Generally, here's what I plan to try to accomplish:

• Create a 4th Army with the MGL
• Fill said army with Maces
• Try to kill off the Americans or the Hittites, or both
• become a Monarchy
• Keep everyone's iron pillaged

Not sure if I'll get the turns played tonight, but I'll try. If anyone has any thoughts, plans, or objections, post 'em. I'll check in before I play.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cbob01 - Turnlog 850 AD+

Preflight Assessment:
Remaining Anarchy: 2 Turns
Researching: INnvention
To all appearances, we have 0 beakers invested. That's what CA2 tells me, anyway.

We have 21 cities and 3 armies, so we can support another. As the FP is in place in Murmur, I think that's the next logical choice for a leader (Trotsky).

Looks like Germany is really crowding YarYar and the Northwest.

I only see 2 American cities: New York and Philadelphia.
I only see 2 Hittite cities: Tyrana and Harran.

State of our Glorious Military:
2 Settlers
29 Workers
1 Archer
13 Spears
15 Swords
5 Ponies
11 Pikes
35 Cats
3 Armies (Swords all)
8 MI

State of our Glorious Empire:
Builds:
Harbor [1]: Omsk
Medieval Infantry [3]: Yakkity Yakutsk, Iron Hill and Rowdy Rostov
Pikemen [10]: NHT, Halifax, YarYar, JellyBank, H&S, Savignon Samara, Murmur, Somewhere City,Tarsus, Ugarit
Trebuchet [5]: SSP, Gold Hill, West Moscow, Hattusha, Anywhere
Walls [1]: Hattusas
Library [1]: Mosaic Moscow

According to our Military advisor, we are strong compared to everyone. Nonetheless, I can't kill everyone off in 10 turns.

I see some cats, a spear and a sword south of West Moscow. All but one have movement left, so I move them South into the forest by New York.

Long-term goals:
Unchanged. The same thing we do every night, Pinky. Try and take over the world.

Mid-term goals:
Eradicate Germans, Americans, Hittites and Babylonians, not necessarily in that order.

Short-term goals:
1) Survive.
2) Keep Iron Pillaged.
3) Become a monarchy
4) Kill off at least one of the following: (a) Hittites; or (b) Americans.

 

[CommandoBob]

Looks good, Aabraxan. Getting rid of the Two City Civ Pests (the Hitts and the Yanks) would be excellent, if you can pull it off. I know you'll try, depending on how active the Germans are.

Everyone seems to think that the other AIs are out of offensive steam. With our pillaging and unit killing, this seems very likely. In that case, I would only add three more things to focus on during your turns: libraries, settlers and unit rotation.

Techs are only going to get more expensive and we need some libraries to help us learn. I think if we could at least start two libraries in the core, they could be built fairly quickly, perhaps even within your turns. More would be better, of course, but we still need the flow of fighting units.

And we need more cities to claim more land and add to our research and unit support. Looks like plenty of land between us and Germany. The rest of Not-Yet-Russia looks a bit crowded from the current tenants.

We are building new Pikes and these are needed to replace the Spears in the field. We can't afford to upgrade the Spears, but we can still use them as Military Police to keep some of our cranky citizens under control. So, if you can, don't use Pikes as MPs. Try to send Spears back to the core and Pikes to the front line.

Happy Pillaging!