CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

Bucephalus · Apr 15, 2008

lurker's comment:

That's a little bit pedantic, TT.

I would argue that the stats are exactly as I said (2/1/2), whereas the Combat bonus is just another variable to factor in to the equation, the same as the terrain, river, hill etc.

I'll be interested to see how it affects the odds though.

CommandoBob · Apr 15, 2008

I'm back from vacation, but have had some video card problems that have occupied my time.

With any luck, I'll get a chance to get caught up on this game tonight.

TheOverseer714 · Apr 15, 2008

Cerenkov is MIA, so CBob, you are up. If you can't get the game to run for you, I can probably take it tomorrow night. Just give me a holler if you need a skip or swap.

CommandoBob · Apr 15, 2008

I spent time last night uninstalling video drivers. Once that was done I spent some hours on Mystery Case Files: Prime Suspects. No crashing and a lot of mouse clicking. So tonight I'll try Civ.

ThinkTank · Apr 15, 2008

Bucephalus said:
lurker's comment:
That's a little bit pedantic, TT.

Thank you. You ain't seen nothing yet. It took me more than a year on CFC to be called just that, though I guess MAS and vxma came close at times.

Anyway, it's good to know that you share a taste of "analysis on the square millimeter" with me (as a Dutch saying goes).

So now for the odds. My former calculation was wrong because I took the barb horse for 3 hp while is of course 2 hp. I also did not account for the retreat posibility of the horse while defending.

The situation is:
Regular 3 hp warrior fortified in town (no walls) on grass.
Conscript 2 hp horse on hill.
River between town and hill.

1. Without the barbarian combat bonus.
Warrior attacks: modified defense of horse is 1.75. Stats are: warrior wins 19.8, loss 44.8, draw 35.4.
Warrior defends: modified defense of warrior is 1.60. Stats are: warrior wins 31.4, loss 34, draw 34.6.

2. With the barbarian combat bonus.
Warrior attacks: modified defense of horse is 1.75, but modified attack of warrior now 1.5. The combat calculator can't do this, but for a modified attack of 2 the stats are: warrior wins 30.2, loss 38.1, draw 31.7.
Warrior defends: modified defense of warrior is 2.10. Stats are: warrior wins 40.5, loss 36, draw 23.5.

Conclusion: the barbarian combat bonus improves the odds of attacking, but defending is better in both cases.

CommandoBob said:
I'm back from vacation.

Good to have you back CommandoBob! It was a bit quiet here without you!

CommandoBob · Apr 15, 2008

Preflight Analysis
16 Gold,-1 gpt
0% tax
100% science
0% luxury
Horseback Riding in 4 turns.

City Builds

Berlin (1) library in 13, grows in 2.
Leipzig (1) barracks in 1, grows in 2.
Hamburg (2) vArcher in 6, grows in 8.
Konigsberg (1) worker in 5, grows in 3.
Frankfurt (1) settler in 9, grows in 1.
Munich (2) settler in 24, grows in 3.
Heidelburg (1) library in 38, grows in 8.
Nuremberg (1) barracks in 1, grows in 4.

City Production
Library [2] (Berlin and Heidelburg)
Barracks [2] (Leipzig and Nuremberg)
vArcher [1] (Hamburg)
worker [1] (Konigsberg)
settler [2] (Frankfurt and Munich)

Military

02 Settlers
12 Workers
08 Warriors
01 Archer
02 Curragh
- 32 Allowed units
- 25 Current units
- 0 gpt unit support

Compared to the Despotic Vikings we are average.
Compared to the Despotic Iroquois we are average.
Compared to the Despotic Mongols we are weak.

Luxuries
01 Wine is connected to Berlin.
01 Spices are connected to Berlin.

Frankfurt and Munich are NOT connected to Berlin.

Settlers (2)
One is ready to build a city on the mouth of the Hamburg/Copenhagen river. It is protected by a warrior.
The other settler is in mid-Germany. I think it is heading straight south to the coastal hill SW of Munich, the one that currently has a barbarian camp on it.

Workers (12)
We have 2 workers SW of our first settler, but I don't know why. When the City on the Delta is founded, it will not be connected to Berlin. So it looks like these two should move 1E and either build a road or chop the forest and then build a road. Hold on a minute; the tile where they stand is adjacent to a river, so the plan might be better to chop where they are, then improve whatever appears, then road the tile. Once those three things are done, then move 1E to chop, improve and road.
NE of Berlin is one worker building a mine on a BG; finishes in 3 turns.
2S of Berlin are two workers roading a BG. They finish in 1 turn. This road will let us move from Berlin due south to Frankfurt in 2 turns. Good! Once these two are finished roading they will build a mine on this BG, which Leipzig can use.
2S-1SE of Berlin is a worker with no task. A settler is in this same tile. I am not sure what this worker should be doing.
NE of Frankfurt is one worker without a task. He will move 1S onto a hill and make a road to connect to Munich.
Due W of Frankfurt are two workers building a road that will connect Hamburg to Frankfurt but does not cross any rivers. It will take them 3 turns to complete this road.
Due W of Munich is one worker that is irrigating Wheat on a Flood Plain for us. Once that is done it will move NW onto the hill and help another worker to connect Munich to Germany. Then the Wines and Incense will help keep this fast growing city happy, content and productive.
South of Heidelburg is a lone worker building a road in a grassland. It will complete in two turns.
South-Southwest of Heidelburg is another lone worker that will begin a road next turn. Together these two workers will connect Heidelburg to Berlin.

CommandoBob · Apr 16, 2008

Mid Term Strategy
Our continent has 4 luxuries: Wines, Spice, Incense and Ivory. We have sources for two of them. Three Ivory are concentrated around the Iroquois city of Niagra Falls. Three Incense are concentrated around the Viking city of Reykjavik.

Do we want to control the Incense and Ivory or do we wish to trade for them?

With the Iroquois, Vikings and Mongols all on this land mass, we will have some warfare. It won't matter if we are weaker or stronger than our neighbors; the AI is bound to do something stupid and declare war on us. So I think we need to build up our forces and use the war to our advantage.

However, we have 8 cities on the map now and one more to build next turn, which brings us to 9 cities. To gain control of Ivory and Incense we will need two more cities. Niagra Falls is in a good location to control the Ivory; Reykjavik would need to be razed and replaced for us to control the Incense with one city. So now we are at 11 cities.

One Idea
I think we need to control the Ivory and Incense for later trading. That means war with Iroquois and the Vikings. That is okay. I expected some Ancient Age conflict as we grew. I even expected to eliminate one AI in the Ancient Age since I expected the AIs to start closer to us.

This is a rough outline of one way we could do this.

First, we DoW on Scandanavia, with the aim of razing/replacing Reykjavik. We MA with the Vikings as we do this. We might get the Mongols to join in the fun also. Copenhagen we would raze but we would keep Bergen and give it the Iroquois. When Bergen is gifted to the Iroquois we stop the Viking offensive. When the 20 turns are done, we make peace with the Vikings. Then we DoW on the Iroqouis. The goal is to capture Niagara Falls and raze everything except Bergen.

I know this sounds confusing and it is.

The goal is to claim luxuries and weaken our neighbors so that we have only the Mongols to worry about. If the Vikings are eliminated, that's fine with me. I don't want to face that UU in a later war. Bezerks and Boats just scare me. Right now the Iroquois lack a source of Horses, so their UU might not be built. The other odd thing, gifting Bergen to the Irqouis, is to prevent their elimination by us and to make sure their capital is far enough away from Niagara Falls so that it will not be a culutral bother.

Short Term Strategy
We have two barracks that will complete on this IBT. They will build one vSpear each and then begin making vArchers. Our forward cities should have one Spear each for defense, in addition to Archers. I just don't want to depend on an Archer only defense. Hamburg needs a Spear, and so will our new city on the delta.

We have 8 cities and 10 citizens. We are building one worker and two settlers. With the two settlers we have now, this gives us our 12 cities, if we decide to build them at this time.

We have two Irons that we need to connect.

We will build one city for sure (on the Delta) and might get a second city built this turnset.

Next City Builds
Berlin: library in 13 -> barracks -> fighting units.
Leipzig: barracks in 1 -> one vSpear -> vArchers.
Hamburg: vArcher in 6 -> vArcher.
Konigsberg: worker in 5 -> library.
Frankfurt: settler in 9 -> barracks.
Munich: settler in 24 -> harbor.
Heidelburg: library in 38 -> harbor or worker.
Nurembeg: barracks in 1 -> one vSpear -> vArchers.

Bucephalus · Apr 16, 2008

lurker's comment:

I think that you need to take another look at those figures, TT; I'm no mathematician but I have a fair grasp of logic, and logic dictates that the Warrior would have a better chance of defeating a 2-hitpoint Horse than it would a 3-hitpoint Horse, but this is not so with your results.

Your original assertion was that the Warrior had a 25.6% chance to win on attack; however, when you adjusted it to give the Horse 2-hitpoints, the Warrior has only a 19.8% chance of winning (these are the figures without counting the Barb bonus).

ThinkTank · Apr 16, 2008

Bucephalus said:
... logic dictates that the Warrior would have a better chance of defeating a 2-hitpoint Horse than it would a 3-hitpoint Horse, but this is not so with your results.

You're right. There was one other factor I accounted for in the second list of stats, and that is the retreat possibility of the horse on defense; this would decrease the odds of the warrior winning. Anyway, I'll have another look at the numbers this evening.

ThinkTank · Apr 16, 2008

CommandoBob said:
We have 2 workers SW of our first settler, but I don't know why. When the City on the Delta is founded, it will not be connected to Berlin. So it looks like these two should move 1E and either build a road or chop the forest and then build a road. Hold on a minute; the tile where they stand is adjacent to a river, so the plan might be better to chop where they are, then improve whatever appears, then road the tile. Once those three things are done, then move 1E to chop, improve and road.

It may be hard to see, but there already is a road 1SE of settler 1, so the city will be connected to Berlin. For the workers there, my plan was to chop and improve the forest tiles SW, W and NW of the new town, because first, these are river tiles, and second, the position is in a spot that may draw eneymy activity, and the forests on these tiles is only going to help our enemies.

Will look at your other comments later today.

CommandoBob · Apr 16, 2008

ThinkTank said:
It may be hard to see, but there already is a road 1SE of settler 1, so the city will be connected to Berlin. For the workers there, my plan was to chop and improve the forest tiles SW, W and NW of the new town, because first, these are river tiles, and second, the position is in a spot that may draw eneymy activity, and the forests on these tiles is only going to help our enemies.

I did look at that tile but could not see a road in the forest. I'm glad the road is already in place! So these two workers will chop and improve their current tile, and then make a killing zone on the west side of the city.

ThinkTank · Apr 16, 2008

Bucephalus said:
lurker's comment:

I think that you need to take another look at those figures, TT; I'm no mathematician but I have a fair grasp of logic, and logic dictates that the Warrior would have a better chance of defeating a 2-hitpoint Horse than it would a 3-hitpoint Horse, but this is not so with your results.

Your original assertion was that the Warrior had a 25.6% chance to win on attack; however, when you adjusted it to give the Horse 2-hitpoints, the Warrior has only a 19.8% chance of winning (these are the figures without counting the Barb bonus).

A. 3 hp regular warrior attacking regular 3 hp horse on a hill behind a river:

1. Forgetting the retreat possibility: warrior wins 25.7, loss 72.3.
2. Including the retreat possibility: warrior wins 14.5, draw 15, loss 70.5.

B. 3 hp regular warrior attacking conscript 2 hp horse on a hill behind a river:

1. Forgetting the retreat possibility: warrior wins 46.1, loss 53.9.
2. Including the retreat possibility: warrior wins 19.8, draw 44.8, loss 35.4.

Because in my first post I forgot about the retreat on defending, we were comparing A1 with B2 and then it indeed looks illogical; we should've compared A2 with B2.

CommandoBob · Apr 21, 2008

0 1000 BC

(ThinkTank left some units with movement left on them.)
Warrior01, between Trondheim (Viking) and Almarikh (Mongol), heads South.
SS Konigsberg, up north of the east coast of Mongolia, sails counterclockwise to explore the coast.
Archer01, now Elite and wounded, captures a barbarian camp and finds 25 gold.

[IBT]
Leipzig barracks -> vSpear in 20.
Nuremberg barracks -> vSpear in 7.

First Palace Expansion! We plant some grass and build some walkways.

1 0975 BC

Road completed to Frankfurt from Berlin; worker moves 1S onto hill.
Two workers 2S of Berlin finish road, begin to mine that BG; 3 turns.
Worker and Settler in Central Germany; SW onto road.
Worker S-SW of Heidelburg, road in 3.
Settler on the Delta founds the city of Cologne; our 9th city.
Cologne barracks in 20, grows in 5.
Two workers SW of Cologne chop forest, due in 2.
Warrior01 S.
SS Konigsberg, CCW through Mongol waters.
SS Southerner, CW through Iroquois waters.
Archer01 heals in place on a hilltop.

[IBT]
Mongols are building The Temple of Artemis. (availabe with Polytheism/made obsolete by Education)

2 0950 BC

Archer01 now at 3/5; leave alone.
Worker completes the road in the flood plain near Munich; NW onto hill.
Worker now on the hill SE of Frankfut; road in 6.
Worker now 3S of Berlin should not have been moved last turn; should have stayed in place on the BG. Move it back NE, to road.
Settker moves 2S, now SE of Frankfurt, on a hill.
Worker S of Heidelberg moves SW, to make a mine on that BG.
Warrior01 S, into Viking lands (for only 1 turn).
SS Konigsberg and SS Southerner continue thier coastal mapping.

Frankfurt is now size 2; grows in 9, settler in 7. Change to library in 12.

Iroquois have a worker to sell but want Literature for it. No way.

[IBT]
Ragnar wants Warrior01 to leave. We agree.

3 0925 BC

Archer01 heals.
Settler moves S, hilltop to hilltop.
Two workers have connected Hamburg to Frankfurt in a non-river way. They move NE to connect Iron.
Worker NE of Berlin; N onto BG, to road and mine.
Chop near Cologne uncovers a BG. Both workers mine and then road.
Warrior01 S, leaving Viking land.
SS Konigsberg sails CW to go exploring in the deep ocean. The Mongol coast has been mappped.
SS Southerner completes the mapping of the Iroquois coast. It will continue to sail CW looking for a far Western tile to sail west across the Great Ocean.

Drop Science to 20% and +18 gpt; Horseback Riding in 1.
Increase the Happy Slider to 30% to keep Munich from rioting. The road is still several turns away from being completed through the hills.
+9 gpt now.

[IBT]
We learn Horseback Riding, begin to learn Construction, due in 50 turns at 20% science.

4 0900 BC

Settler moves SE, now due West of Munich.
Worker 2S of Berlin finish their mine, move SE onto BG to mine (it is being roaded right now).
Road from Konigsberg to Heidelburg is complete; worker helps mine the BG it is on; 3 turns.
Worker mines the BG due W of Nuremberg, 6 turns.
Warrior01 S.
Archer01, now fulled healed, waits for the settler to show up.

Increase science back to 70%, now with 43 gold and -3 gpt, Construction in 32 turns. Once our cities grow and we have more commerce our negative GPT will take care of itself. We have 9 cities and 16 citizens.

We can sell Literature:
Iroquois: Mysticism and 226 of 501 gold OR 347 of 501 gold.
Mongols: Mysticism and 201 of 213 gold.
Vikings: Mysticism and 156 of 156 gold.

Mongols have Polytheism, since they are building the Temple of Artemis. We need some gold to fund our research.

In a solo game I would sell Literature to Iroquois for 347 gold and then to the Vikings for Mysticism and all their gold. Then I would talk to the Mongols about Polytheism with over 400 gold to bargin with.

Sell Literature to Iroquois for 347 of 501 gold.
Sell Literature to Vikings for Mysticism and 28 of 156 gold. I expected the price to drop, but not that much.
Everyone know Polytheism.
Sell Literature to Mongosl for Polytheism and 168 of 418 gold.
We are now at tech parity.

Cannot increase the smart slider because Munich will riot. Road will connect in 5 turns.

Three techs left in the Ancient Age: Construction, Currency and Code of Laws.

I keep learning Construction at 70%/32 turns. We have two libraries that will be built rather soon (4 and 10 turns) and in 5 turns we can increase our research to 100%. We should be able to trade Construction for Currency and Code of Laws. We'll have to learn Republic on our own.

[IBT]
Konigsberg worker -> library in 20.

5 0875 BC

Settler moves S.
Two workers in central Germany start a mine on a BG, 3 turns.
New worker in Konigsberg moves onto the hill to connect 2nd Wines (trading).
Warrior01, SE.
Munich will grow in 3 turns to size 4. Hire a geek to slow the growth, now it grows in 6 turns.
Drop happy slider to 0%, increase smart slider to 100%; Construction in 19 turns, -3 gpt.

[IBT]
Hamburg vArcher -> vArcher in 7.
6 0850 BC

Settler moves S again, now on the hilltop with our Elite Archer, 2SW-S of Munich.
We begin to connect our 2nd wine, near Konigsberg, 6 turns.
BG near Cologne mined, now roading starts; 2 turns.
Warrior01, SE, entering German territory.
SS Konigsberg is as far East of Mongolia as is possible; sails East into the unknown ocean.
Worker in Central Germany that was roading head 2N to connect up another Wine.

[IBT]
Iron is connected to Berlin.
Nuremberg vSpear -> vSword in 8.

7 0825 BC

Workers on Iron Hill near Frankfurt, NW into forest to road.
BG is mined between Kongisberg and Heidelburg. Those two worker move through Heidelburg to chop the forest W of the city.
We begin to connect the Wines SE of Berlin.
Spear in Nuremberg moves to Berlin.
Warrior in Berlin moves to Leipzig, which is now size 3 and needs more MPs.
Warrior01 enters Cologne.
SS Konigsberg sails 2E, Ocean to Ocean.
The settler and eArcher are now together. At one time I thought this was a good city location but now I am not so sure. We need strong production cities and this will not be one, surronded by ocean, flood plains and desert. A better place would be closer to Hamburg, where there are two BGs to use and more green land.
Settler/Archer N.

Mongols know Code of Laws. We cannot buy it with 241 gold.

[IBT]
Berlin library -> barracks in 4.
Leipzig vSpear -> vArcher in 5.
Cologne barracks -> vSpear in 10.
SS Konigsberg is lost at sea.

8 0800 BC

Archer/Settler N into German lands, now W of Munich.
Warrior in Leipzig heads back to Berlin, which grows to size 3 this IBT.
Central German Miners move N of Konigsberg, to chop the forest and help the library.
Chop begins W of Heidelburg; 2 turns.
Cologne vSpear -> library, so as not to waste the chops.
The two workers finsih the road and I send them one NW and the other N to chop the forests. Normally I would keep them together, but this puts both chops into the bank for the library at the same time; we don't have to worry about wasting part of the chop.
wake the Warrior SE of Hamburg and send in to Frankfurt. A wandering Viking Warrior is getting curious about Frankfurt; I want him to know that Frankfurt is defended.

[IBT]

9 0775 BC

Munich is now connected to Berlin.
Archer/Settler arrive in Frankfurt.
Forest N of Konigsberg begins to be chopped; completes in 2.
Warrior01 fortifies in Cologne.
Forests N and NW of Cologne begin to be chopped; finish in 4 turns.
Move a worker onto the Iron south of Munich to connect it (trading).
Mongols have not traded Code of Laws.

[IBT]

10 0750 BC

Viking warrior is on the hill that I wanted to settle on. And Mauch Chunk was built last turn, so that will limit us.
Forest cleared W of Heidelburg; now is only a grassland. Two workers begin a mine, finsih in 3 turns.
Wines SE of Berlin are connected; mine in 6.
Mine W of Nuremberg completed; road in 3.
Connecting the Iron S of Munich; road in 6.
Archer/Settler move 2W and fortify.
Move a worker to the BG 2S of Hamburg.

[IBT]

CommandoBob · Apr 21, 2008

East Germany 750 BC

Not much of interest here. We have workers near Heidelburg mining; workers N of Konigsberg chopping the forest; worker roading a mined BG near Nuremberg; worker mining the Wines near Berlin; two workers making a forest road between Liepzig and Frankfurt; one worker connecting another Wine near Konigsberg; and one worker connecting a second Iron near Munich.

All cities are connected to Berlin. All cities have two luxuries to help keep the population happy.

West Germany 750 BC

The hill inside the Light Blue Circle is where I wanted to build this city. The Archer and Settler are fortified 1N of that tile. The Viking Warrior is a problem, but he may attack the barbarian warrior on the IBT. Veteran Viking vs. Conscript Barabarian; the Viking should win and move out of the way.

The worker outside our borders is on a BG for our new city.

SS Southerner

With our coastline mapped we need to explore the seas. The Blue Dot is as far West as we can get in coastal waters. The Blue Line is just which way the SS Southerner will sail.

Other Stuff
Research
We have one library up and running and helping us learn Construction. The next one is 4 turns away. As our cities grow our commerce increases and the time needed to learn Construction decreases. We might learn it on Turn 8.

Science/Luxury Slider
However, I don't know how long we can run at 100% science. At some point we will have to have more luxuries to keep our people happy. Berlin is size 3; it has two happy citizens and one content. It has two luxuries and 2 MPs. When it grows to size 4 that citizen will be born unhappy and (I think) stay unhappy. The fifth citizen will be born unhappy and stay unhappy. At size five we have 2 Happy, 1 Content and 2 Unhappy, so the city stays productive. At size 6 we get 3 Unhappy and the city shuts down, unless we increase luxuries.

The problem is that not all of our cities have 2MPs. Heidelburg has no MPs and has 1 Happy and 1 Content citizen. At size 3 it will have 1 Happy, 1 Content and 1 Unhappy. At size 4 it riots.

Republic is a few turnsets away. It looks like one task of the next turnset will be produce enough units to keep our cities in good order. We can build 9 more units before we face unit support costs. We get free support for 36 units; we have 27.

Code of Law
Mongols are the only ones to know Code of Laws. They have known it for two turns and not traded it to anyone we know.

Except for Code of Laws, we are at tech parity with Mongols, Viking and Iroquois.

CommandoBob · Apr 21, 2008

Roster:
CommandoBob - just played
TheOverseer714 - UP!
Tad Empire_0_o - on deck
ThinkTank - warming up
Cerenkov
Sasquatch - lurking

ThinkTank · Apr 22, 2008

Looking at the minimap, expansion is almost over so we should be preparing for war. If we stick to 12 cities, I think we should get to 10 cities, and then go to war for our 11th and 12th. The 11th should be on our ivory, now still unlawfully poached by the Iroquois. The 12th should grab the 4th lux. Have the Iroquois already started building SoZ? If so then it might be worth waiting attacking them until the turn after they complete it. If not I'd say they should be our first victims, and we try to build SoZ ourselves. I think we have a good shot at that since on a standard continents map it is not likely there is ivory somewhere else on the map.

I think the restriction to 12 cities is going to make life fairly hard for us and in fact is going to lead to a lot of war before there are panzers around; in a sense the restriction possibly defeats the goal of this game (no "real" war before panzers). Here is why. 1. The Mongols are on our continent. This implies war. Moreover, they will kill the Vikings and become larger than we are. This implies more war. 2. Every war after we have 12 cities is going to make room on this continent that we cannot claim. So it is going to be claimed by some AI. Meaning that we will always be facing some AI(s) that are at least as large or larger than we are. This makes declarations of war likely.

So actually, in order to stay faithful to the main concern of this game, and that is to avoid the "big final" war until there are panzers, my proposal would be to forget about the 12 city restriction. This allows us to become big enough to discourage the AI declaring on us. So my proposal would be to eliminate the Iroquois and claim all their territory and settle it, possibly another 2 or 3 jungle towns. At the same time, we should keep the Vikiings alive as long as possible as a shield against the Mongols. In this strategy, we will own half our continent, and we will have the critical mass to be a strong military and economic power. After that, we play defensively, until the panzers.

CommandoBob · Apr 22, 2008

ThinkTank said:
I think the restriction to 12 cities is going to make life fairly hard for us and in fact is going to lead to a lot of war before there are panzers around; in a sense the restriction possibly defeats the goal of this game (no "real" war before panzers).

You are right. Given our current map setup I don't think that 12 cities will be enough to insulate us from warfare, which was what I was hoping for. I thought that 12 cities we would be big enough that the AIs would not bother us with their petty, little wars. I don't think that can happen on this map.

My most recent games have been on Huge Pangea maps. I think that influenced my thinking in a big way, since on pangea it would be easy to cause distant wars. Here we are stuck with each other for a long time.

Early on you (ThinkTank) mentioned a limit of 16 cities.

Let's make that (16) our limit for now and see how well we do with 16 cities. I am open to going as high as 20 if we need to.

EDIT:
I updated the Starting Post(s) to indicate the new city limit. I was reminded that we have until 10 AD to get our cities built. If we don't get to 16 (or maybe 20) by then, we'll just go forward with what we have.

TheOverseer714 · Apr 22, 2008

I am okay with whatever number of cities we eventually choose. I think 12 is doable myself, in Hawk02 we were a 5cc and had very few serious wars until late. We did do some wars to reduce the power of nearby opponents who were crowding our cities, so it was not all peace and love. I think you might be surprised at how powerful limited wars can be for checking the growth of AI opponents without grabbing the empty land created. As long as the other AI's stay at peace and don't grow by conquest, I think we will be adequately strong. When it looks like someone is getting too strong, we start a war to prune them back. On another subject, I will probably begin play either tonight or tomorrow night, so any comments or ideas would be welcome.

CommandoBob · Apr 23, 2008

How do you think we should go about getting the Iroquois Ivory? ThinkTank and I have some ideas, and I think they reinforce each other, but the more the merrier.

TheOverseer714 · Apr 23, 2008

War! I am building swords, and I think a group of 6 could sweep through the Iroquois pretty easily to capture the Ivory. It may be difficult to hold with the proximity to Salamanca (culture flips and all, but it would be worth having). We might just capture Salamanca also and let the Vikings hold it for us for about 1500 years to reduce cultural pressure. We could use the same gambit for the Incense, only in reverse, letting the Iroquois hold Trondheim. Here is a picture with my ideas:

Spoiler :

Actually, I just finished the turn-set, so I will post my results right now. Here is the turn-log:

Spoiler :

The save:

CBob04 Achtung Panzer!

Shooting from the lip....

AbstractArt

Overseer

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RL Addict

AbstractArt

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Shooting from the lip....

RL Addict

RL Addict

AbstractArt

RL Addict

AbstractArt

AbstractArt

AbstractArt

RL Addict

AbstractArt

Overseer

AbstractArt

Overseer

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