CCM1 (epic mod)

[SteamCiv]

Incan -Argentina: The combination is Incas/Peru/Chile (I have to find a good name for them)

Carthage-Tunisa or Carthage-Algeria: I´m reflecting about naming that civ: North Africa

I´m reflecting about replacing the Mayas with Australia/Polynesia, Portugal with Brazil/Tupi and what to do with the Arabs (as CCM still holds Northern Africa, Iraq/Babylon, Egypt and Persia). In a very early predecessor of CCM the game hold the Confederates as a civ, what was some fun to play.

I like the term "North Africa." Regional names are sometimes better than trying to sort out the individual countries as what was done with Scandanavia.

Inca-Andean?

I have had many long conversations with various individuals about what General Lee (or one of his generals did or did not do at [insert battle here] which "lost the war for the Confederacy."

Its too bad Civ 3 cannot be designed to have a city rebel into that desired specific civilization.
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The BARBARIANS. I have been tinkering with them, it seems that even if they are flagged to enslave enemy units, to create yet another unit, as the slavers and prophets, the barbarian units cannot?


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BTW--The Barbarians of Civ 1 were far more annoying and dangerous than Civ 3. If any unexplored region was left, they would appear to do mischief even late in the game. Their late units, if I recall were the musketeer, labeled rebels, no threat against mech infantry, but there they were. And if any should seize a weakly staffed city, they would sell every hard earned improvement except for the barracks, leaving a shell when that city was retaken.

-----------------------------------
It would seem Barbarians CANNOT enslave:

Re: Zurai's Conquest
Quote:
Originally posted by Zurai
>>Much more powerful Barbarians, capable of turning your own ships and soldiers against you!<<

If this means what I think it means, then I'm afraid you've got here another great idea that doesn't actually work.

I just did a lot of testing with barbarian units to which I'd given the "enslave" ability, but though they beat many opponents, not once did they actually enslave any of them.

-- Darryl
-----

The paper at
http://pmc.iath.virginia.edu/issue.902/13.1douglas.html
discusses the issue and apparently barbarians in CIV 3 were designed to be hapless victims of colonizing powers, their land needed to be cleared of the tribes reminiscent of colonization of the Americas by European powers "In fact, these games posit a fundamental opposition between a tribe's mere squatting on the land, taking up space, and the civilization's real tenancy on the land. "

 

[SteamCiv]

Its not unusual to have the AI park 4 bombards or other artillery next to a city with with no defensive units stacked.

Since this seems a fact of life with the AI, would it not make sense to presume an infantry component attached to the artillery plus standard entrenching procedures by upping the defense strength a tad?

The formula might be 1 additional defense point per 4 or 5 attack points. This means attack 4 or 5 through 7or 9 would have defense 1 (like now) and attack 8 or 10 through 11 or 14 would have defense 2.

 

[Quinzy]

Indeed, 'Andean' might be a compromise for the Inca/Peru/Argentina.

 

[iPwn]

Nubia could use a civ specific wonder that cause +1 happines in all cities and has something to do with smoking weed. That Haile Selasie guy is the one all rhastas in Jamaica and anywhere else worship, right? Also, maybe Herr Civinator would be interested to know that Herr Bismark was not very cooperative when mighty Nubian Empire demanded some strudel, so we incorporated Germany - and found there is German Artillery school small wonder in Berlin - that cannot be right, can it? Oh, and in 3rd era the person wearing mustache does not look like Pachacuti at all even though pedia says P is the leader for Incas in all 4 eras.

 

[Wolfshade]

You did a good testing job, Herr iPwn, but where's a medal that was specially for you?
Honestly, only criticism and no constructive meaningful suggestions for fixes. This is the way to nowhere, man.

 

[Civinator]

Nubia could use a civ specific wonder that cause +1 happines in all cities and has something to do with smoking weed. That Haile Selasie guy is the one all rhastas in Jamaica and anywhere else worship, right? Also, maybe Herr Civinator would be interested to know that Herr Bismark was not very cooperative when mighty Nubian Empire demanded some strudel, so we incorporated Germany - and found there is German Artillery school small wonder in Berlin - that cannot be right, can it? Oh, and in 3rd era the person wearing mustache does not look like Pachacuti at all even though pedia says P is the leader for Incas in all 4 eras.

iPwn, normally I try to answer the posts one after the other as my free time allows to do it, but in this case I have to prefer answering your post as my attempt to keep the style of posting in this thread polite and not personally.

In CCM there will be no positive wonders based on drugs. Plus-1-happiness-wonders (that mostly also give a golden age to that civ) were only given to really important cvis, especially in the industrial age. Nubia wasn´t such an important civ as per example the British Empire, the US or Russia. In fact Nubia only made it into CCM in the discussions of the CCM prebetatesting, as there nearly existed no other African civ with different leaders (and leaderheads) for the different ages. Nubia not only has the leaderhead of Haile Selasie, but in earlier eras also the leaderheads of Taharqa and Queen Bilgis. There is the problem that there don´t exist a lot of leaderheads for African civs of era 3 and 4 (and different leaderheads for earlier eras). It´s a pitty, that the best creators of leaderheads seem to only produce leaderheads for era 1 or 2. One of the very positive exceptions was Plotinus, who gave us the Haile Selasie leaderhead for more modern eras of Civ 3.

I don´t know if I understood your post about the German artillery school correctly. The settings of the heavy artillery producing buildings as perequisits of the MG Batallions autoproducing buildings was one of the most trickiest parts of CCM, to assure that each civ only has one autoproducing heavy WW I artillery building and only one of the -at the time of the conception of CCM- existing WW II MG units (British, Japanese, German and US for all others) produced by buildings. I don´t have now the time to explain it in depth, but with the methode used in CCM, each civ only has one of these autoproducing buildings. I didn´t want to use my advanced autoproduction methode for the Mg-units as these units should defend as the first unit in a stack and not as the last (what would have been the case by using the king-flag).

The German artillery school is a normal building (that only can been built in the city that holds the German Military academy SW -so there can only be one of these buildings). As it is no SW and until now has no culture, there is a possibility that this building can be captured when the city is conquered. This is not intended. One possibility is to add one culture to that building or to set it as a SW, so it will always be destroyed when the city is conquered (in the last case I have to create a splash for that SW). Thank you for reporting that error.

The leader acting for the Incas in era 3 and 4 is Aguirre (created by CivArmy). As posted above, this is one of the modifications for the Inca/Peru/Chile civ that will come. The civilopedia will be rewritten in this part. When the current CCM civilopedia was written, that change wasn´t existing.

 

[Moosezilla]

Not really a glich as small wonders can be captured, it can function (I think) if not obsolete. I think the real surprise is capturing Roman Senate, so you can build Forts, again it did go obsolete. Perhaps it is my "son" Pachacuti II? Wonder victory would be a snap, and happy already seems easy, I like it. Oops, posted before seeing Civinator's answer. Maybe Roman Senate also not really a Wonder/SW. National Symbol is needed to build certain things ie buildings w/wonder or sw ability. Again I do not see it as a Glich or "bug".

 

[iPwn]

I also bombed a city and destroyed Royal Garrison there.

 

[Civinator]

Last words on the subject: Please do not use Wikipedia as a source for substantiating evidence. I don't care what the public thinks, it is not reliable, not vetted and people can lie with impunity.

Hi ReindeerThistle, sorry, but in this point I have a completely different opinion. Only a civer who did an intensive working on an own Civ 3 civilopedia can imagine, what immense amount of work, knowledge and time is needed to form a complex civilopedia. That is the reason why most epic C3C mods have no or only a very simple description part in their civilopedias (in the way like: "A fighter is a plane that kills other planes" using the same text for a Spitfire, a Me-109, a Mustang and so on).

rhodie made an incredible gift to CCM and all civers around the globe by sending me (if I remember well) about 70 DINA 4 pages with civilopedia entries in the special format CCM is using for the entries. Without his incredible work and the methode of integrating informations from Wikipedia (with some added or changed additional informations) he speeded up the betatest release of CCM massively and it could be that without his civilopedia work CCM wouldn´t have much description in the mod until today.

Wikipedia is not used as a "source for substantiating evidence" in CCM. Most entries -especially about units - were read by me and a lot of interested and informed civers. If I found something that was wrong in my eyes I changed it. Every civer- of course including you - can post if there is something completely wrong in the civilopedia, so it can be corrected if this is necessairy.

Until now many situations were reported, when the civilopedia gives wrong informations, but this was always caused by changes in CCM after the civilopedia was written. Changes and corrections for the civilopedia can always be suggested - and so it could last some time, they will be done if I agree to these suggestions.

rhodie is one of my Civ3 friends and did a lot for CCM!

 

[Civinator]

Cannot believe, Civinator, how much fun I'm having with this mod.

Until 1.8, I'm changing up the settlers, to avoid the housboat bug, those units are too wonderful NOT to use, I have been trying them in another capacity:

1--The Pyramids are back to their granary function
2--the settler unit is now the universal settler as before (no support costs, especially to help the AI in case they are stored away in the cities, the same might be considered for the workers?!?)
3--The Sphinx now creates the Clan (Attack 0 defense 0 ) every 5 turns.
4--the Clan updates to the various regional settler types

5--The Sphinx has been renamed "Heritage Antiquity Site," costs 10 and is build-able after Free Artistry is discovered.
6--The Clan is now renamed "Academician"
7--The "Academician" upgrades to "Idealist," ie Egyptian Idealist, "NorthEuropean Idealist" and so forth. They set out to spread their "philosophy." As slavers, missionaries and lawyers, are hidden, can see hidden and has attack 1, defense 1 move 1, worker 50, AI explore, Offensive, no support. They are designed primarily to target other AI Idealists but can target other weak units.
7--a successful attack by the "Idealist" results in a supply shipment, something scholarly worthwhile is gained from the encounter.

8--Because the "Idealist" comes during the Age of Discovery period, it is too weak to pose a threat to a cities defense and other military units of that era.

The result is that each of the regional Civs have a distinct visual presence that continue to take advantage of the settler graphic package of CCM.

The logic here is that the Civ is now interested in its cultural heritage digs something up and is excited about it. Artists, students, science in its infancy create Academicia which from that form Idealistic wanderers who go out and share their belief and ideals. If their new way of doing things catches on, a supply shipment is created and whomever can snatch it will of course benefit directly from the exchange.

Alternately the settlers might work for a merchant theme.

Additionally, to make things more interesting, the work animations from the workers have been incorporated into the the respective .ini files of each "Idealist:"....AVI, FLC etc Files of course were copied / referred to from the worker graphics to accomplish this. Note the Idealist also can double but are less efficient as a worker. The AI will actually from time to time perform worker functions with the idealist, though primarily they are roving around. Ive tested with Egypt Civ to insure no funny business with its settler problems and its working well so far.

Hi SteamCiv, these are interesting ideas you did post here. I tested big parts of these settings some years ago and decided not to integrate a complete microcosmos of units working like enslavers or holymen. One of the problems is the balance between the HN- and normal units appearing in a game. To keep this balance by a certain rate of autoproduction combined with a low rate of attack seems to work in the first view. But what kind of units could they attack? Other HN-units with these settings, settlers and mainly workers - and the additional elemination of workers is a big problem for the AI in C3C. Experienced human players handle the defense against HN-units and the loss of workers much better than the AI. The use of workers is crucial for the development of a civ -and the AI in that case must be treated very cautiously. Per example in CCM the forming of garrisons (by "killing" a worker) had to be moved from era 1 far away into era 2 so there was enough room for the AI to build an infrastructure for the AI Civ. Now with hordes of different HN-units, whose main victim will be workers, there must be found a new balance that gives the AI "enough air to breath". I´m sceptical, that this balance can be achieved by giving the HN-unit additionally the worker-tactics (or only the worker-flags). The AI only uses units if they have set the proper tactics. As far as I know, if a unit has two or more tactics assigned to that units, the AI will decide to use only one of these tactics. So this setting could be another big advantage for the human player.

A second point why I didn´t incorporate "tons" of these units are simply reasons sof massively enlarged turntimes caused by additional masses of units on the map.

To turn the enslaved units into supply-shipments isn´t very AI-friendly, too. The AI isn´t very good in using the supplyshipments. That´s why I set the amount of receiving a supply in the capital in CCM to only 25 gold -the same sum that is gained when a Barbarian camp is conquered as this doesn´t hurt the AI too much.

But this are only some thoughts. I´m interested in your farther experiences with these settings and if you think they work well after some gameplays (at least in monarch or emperor level), you can post a test-biq here so we can have a deeper look into it.

And for civers like you, here are two sentences, that could be interesting for creative modders. Many concepts of CCM are based around the "king-flag", but:

Who says, that an army must be an army?
Who says, that a leader must be a leader?

Civinator, How did you keep the human player from using the enslaver from taking over the AI cities?

Sorry, this is hardcoded (in the hurry I couldn´t find the traditional CFC image for it ).

The BARBARIANS, it seems that even if they are flagged to enslave enemy units, to create yet another unit, as the slavers and prophets, the barbarian units cannot?

Yes, barbarians cannot enslave.

Its not unusual to have the AI park 4 bombards or other artillery next to a city with with no defensive units stacked. Since this seems a fact of life with the AI, would it not make sense to presume an infantry component attached to the artillery plus standard entrenching procedures by upping the defense strength a tad? The formula might be 1 additional defense point per 4 or 5 attack points. This means attack 4 or 5 through 7or 9 would have defense 1 (like now) and attack 8 or 10 through 11 or 14 would have defense 2.

Yes, this happens. I have to reflect about that suggestion, even with higher defense rates for the artillery as you proposed, as these units can´t been built normally. CCM still uses this methode for the escorted bomberraid-unit.

 

[SteamCiv]

and the additional elemination of workers is a big problem for the AI in C3C. Experienced human players handle the defense against HN-units and the loss of workers much better than the AI. The use of workers is crucial for the development of a civ -and the AI in that case must be treated very cautiously.

Yes, Civinator the AI must be considered, I almost forgot; the game speed itself, the latter not that much of a problem since I play on smaller maps to speed things up, I do not like keeping track of heaps of cities. I'm still experimenting there, the idealists may be dropped, as there might be a lot of them, but I did like the unit graphics of the removed regional settlers (taken out to avoid the houseboat bug). And looking at CCM map sizes, I see the the smallest is 100X100 not the normal 60X60.

And for civers like you, here are two sentences, that could be interesting for creative modders. Many concepts of CCM are based around the "king-flag", but:

Who says, that an army must be an army?
Who says, that a leader must be a leader?

When a unit attains victory (elite, I presume) a leader appears upgradeable, not to an army, but to a leader, only stronger than before. I only had it happen once and the leader was quickly killed so I do not remember all clearly, was that an upgrade or did the leader auto generate?

Also in the editor, The CCM edited the army to have one unit capacity and has 2hp bonus, though I do not see how it is introduced, as it probably is not present in the game from what I gather about previous postings concerning the army and AI; especially under conquests. An article about what is wrong with Conquests as written by a person who stated he was a beta tester is here:

http://www.garath.net/Sullla/Civ3/conquestsed.html

The part about Conquest armies was particularly interesting.

I was pleasantly surprised to be introduced to the concept of teh Army in Civ 3 vanilla (not Conquests). Since my maps are small and the city limit is 4 per army, there really is not many armies under my command. They can be nerfed to two units rather than three to accommodate advantages in Conquests over Vanilla. Are Conquest Army advantages are hardcoded (if I know where to look I can apply the hack)or can they be adjusted in the editor?

Civ Vanilla army =No auto heal, no +1 move, no auto pillage
CIV Conquests Army+ Auto Heal (before battlefield medicine) +1 movement, Auto Pillage

--The AI very infrequently upgrades leaders into armies
--the AI puts inappropriate unit types into the army which does not take advantage of +1 movement, (based on slowest movement, so an archer and 2 cavalry are in the army which means the +1 is based off the archer. It is better to have 3 archer or 3 cavalry, ie units of the same base movement).

Solutions
--No armies, the CCM way, the exact mechanics of which escape me at this time
--the army is the leader or the leader is the army, (essentially one unit armies where a leader becomes the army and has all its advantages, but the army is entitled "leader")
--the army is nerfed from 3 to 2 units
--the army is nerfed, to bring it more in line with vanilla (is this a hack that needs to be done or can it be accomplished in the editor?).

I'm glad regicide still works under CCM, one just has to remember to check auto place King units in the editor else the map will introduce the end game sequences instead! On the other hand are the King units the ones appearing / upgraded when battle generates a leader?

Also, I have been using the auto revolution where the scripts only allow the revolution to occur, changing up some of the wording from before to reflect inevitability, but also the reality no matter how much things change, they will the same.

----------------------
script.txt

#NEW_GOVERNMENT_AVAILABLE
#advisor Domestic Surprised
#text
$RULER_TITLE0, the people are marching for a change in government to
^^$LINK0.
^There will be blood in the streets!
#itemlist
Tell me more about governments.
Not to worry, different titles, same faces.
#active 1

------------------------------------

This causes massive human player disruption especially in the early era where de-population as the result of forced resettlement under anarchy can reduce cities to their near starting point as the governments of Monarchy, Theocracy and Republic are in close proximity on the tech tree.
Solutions
--Player must make great sacrifices to trade with the AI to obtain Monarchy, Theocracy, and Republic instead of researching it (no auto revolt occurs)
--Move Monarchy earlier in the research tree and Republic back on the tree, maybe Republic stays where it is at but the government type it becomes available only after say, University is researched (longer periods of time between revolts).

I'm not going to seriously ask you to mess around in CCM to this regard, as other human players may hate it absolutely, they have no control anymore over revolts after researching a government type; it is an idea to give a human leader jarring unease on the throne from time to time.

Not sure if it affects the AI, they seem to have unexpected drops in population regardless, In any case auto revolution forces me to consider a different strategy.

 

[Moosezilla]

I have not seen Armies yet (in CCM) but I "know" that AI cannot handle one w/>1 capacity. AI seem to tend to load a unit mix that negates the movement advantage.

 

[Civinator]

Blue, by all means use whatever you like. Make any adjustments you need as well.

Anthony, thank you very much. You were added to the CCM credits page.

For the tech tree, I was referring to the technology titles that overlap the top of the large boxes: such as Chivalry or Religion in that picture. It's a minor thing, and to adjust it would require moving the tech boxes in the techboxes.pcx to their respective corners and therefore having to redo the whole tree, incuding arrows. So no worries there.

Now I understand. In CCM I´m using "shrinked" techboxes, so I can place more of these techboxes in places where they should be and these boxes can be connected properly with arrows. In one of the used techbox graphics, the graphic had to be enlarged at the top by two pixels. Now the text even in that boxgraphic is inside the box. Thank you for reporting it.

 

[Civinator]

Not really a glich as small wonders can be captured, it can function (I think) if not obsolete. I think the real surprise is capturing Roman Senate, so you can build Forts, again it did go obsolete. ...Maybe Roman Senate also not really a Wonder/SW. National Symbol is needed to build certain things ie buildings w/wonder or sw ability. Again I do not see it as a Glich or "bug".

Moosezilla, the Roman Senate is a GW. It was set as a GW so it can give a building (the Roman symbol) to every city - and this symbol is needed as a perequisite to build the Roman-specific buildings (p.e. the Roman forts). GW are not destroyed, when the city is captured. SW and normal buildings can´t provide other buildings to other cities of that civ. In the case of the Roman Senate I decided to leave this settings, as for the Romans/Italians the early progress must be speeded up to give them an early heavy role in the CCM history.

 

[Civinator]

I also bombed a city and destroyed Royal Garrison there.

This was reported sometimes even for GWs, too. It is not a special bug or problem of CCM, but a general bug/problem of Civ 3, that can happen in rare cases.

 

[Moosezilla]

I have captured Royal Garrisons that function a short while until obsolete. Others were already spent. The point made about Roman's "head start" inspires me to try them w/1.7 Earth.

 

[Civinator]

I have captured Royal Garrisons that function a short while until obsolete. Others were already spent. The point made about Roman's "head start" inspires me to try them w/1.7 Earth.

The Royal Garrison is another SW. In theory it should be destroyed, when another civ captures the city holding the Royal Garrison. May be it´s not enough to set this building a SW, and one culture must be added.

 

[SteamCiv]

I may have to rethink the regicide addition to my version of CCM. I wanted to add it in order to avoid having to take the last city, IF i ever get to that point(I liked the option in AOE2 and Star Wars series ). A debug test game where I casually examined the AI garrison on one civ discovered the AI built perhaps as many as 16 spearmen! Granted this was a game where I applied CCM edits to the civ conquests.biq, and the AI did not have anything to build at that point, but STILL that defense garrison was OUTRAGEOUS.

I was trying it out this way to see the city improvements but since I JUST learned the Statue of Zeus (and other Conquest Wonders) has NO city view model, that took all the fun out of it.

REAL grognards don't care about stinking palaces and "Colossus overlooking the bay" graphics!

 

[SteamCiv]

On a no land bridge version of the CCM 100 x100 map I earlier included, I edited that, placed Canada above England, (renamed Celts) and the USA placed in Ireland, (renamed Irish) but did not do a whole lot of Civpeda tinkering otherwise. I wanted to PLAY the GAME. Oh yes, I set the settlers to 40 turns rather than 20; 31 Civs.

Stuck on that Irish island, I could never venture far. The other civs had more / better ships and my voyages to barbarian infested America always end in failure( in place of Canada and America I put many, many barbarian villages) but before I cold get a toe hold, my ships would get sunk by a hostile civ. Its as if the fish witness from time to time leviathans of the deep emerge from the blackness then swim back to its inky depths after mayhem. I managed to snag a city from next door England but they kept hammering me so when they sued for peace, I accepted it. Churchill had something like 6000 gold in his pockets .

I can only guess that Englans was rush buying troops and even though they had only 3-4 cities I could see, they were rolling riflemen out one each turn. But with all that gold, I do not know if they rush improvements like I do. In any case, all three of our island cvs have resisted mainland invasions from others.

While at war with them, the English set up a city on a tip of nearby land (France) which I cast envious eyes upon. But France took it. Then Spain took it. And I realized how tech behind I was when a German armoured box, the A7V appeared out of the shroud and advanced on the city. Up to that time men with knives, horses and canons had been carrying the fight. To see that mobile iron barn unexpectanly do its work was creepy for a number of reasons.

Iv'e browsed some model kits of the German AV7 and to me, those kits look dull and storage container exciting, unless they produce something that reveals its far more interesting interior with the 18 man crew.

And Carthage, with whom I had been at war at since the discovery of FIRE just dropped on my shores a British style early WWi tank, 2 flamethrowers, and 2 artilleries, while my most advanced unit is the US Cavalry. If they can do that, I probably will resubmit a map WITHOUT the land bridges.

 

[AnthonyBoscia]

The Royal Garrison is another SW. In theory it should be destroyed, when another civ captures the city holding the Royal Garrison. May be it´s not enough to set this building a SW, and one culture must be added.

Royal Garrison SW requires Monarchy, so it can be used by any civ with the same government. Culture adjustments won't affect that either way.