CCM1 (epic mod)

[ReindeerThistle]

Hi ReindeerThistle, sorry, but in this point I have a completely different opinion. Only a civer who did an intensive working on an own Civ 3 civilopedia can imagine, what immense amount of work, knowledge and time is needed to form a complex civilopedia. That is the reason why most epic C3C mods have no or only a very simple description part in their civilopedias (in the way like: "A fighter is a plane that kills other planes" using the same text for a Spitfire, a Me-109, a Mustang and so on).

rhodie is one of my Civ3 friends and did a lot for CCM!

Again, sorry for the rant. I understand the work that you and the modders put into this mod, and I deeply appreciate it, and I accept the commentary that you and rhodie made in regards to my posting about the subject. I am going to edit it.

FYI: I react when I see "Wikipedia" because it is and has been used as a base of attack for my chosen profession and the organizations I work with to come up with solutions to poverty and economic and social inequity in the US and beyond. The attacks may not be truthful or fair, but they are expected. As Lenny Bruce said "If you want to change the status quo, you better be ready to take the hot lead enema."

My thanks to all of the CCM posters, modders and especially Civinator for making the most comprehensive and realistic modification to the CIV III game (still, CIV III rules after all these years!) to date. It seems to only get better.

I am going back to work, so you won't have to put up with this kind of thing from me. But when I get another chance to play a round, I will.

 

[SteamCiv]

[Churchill had something like 6000 gold in his pockets . ]

Its a few turns later and I checked in on Churchill and he had 132gold then a few turns later, 2240 gold.

Apparently they spend it and spend BIG when needed .

Just when I think there is a problem like with the CASH, maybe leave it alone.

Myself I cannot get enough of it and am digging in the couch looking for pennies to pay the pizza man.

 

[SteamCiv]

100x100 standard size map

The Civ Conquest Mod belongs to Civinator and this map uses it. The world map is standard size to speed gameplay and changed to allow more space in the Europe (ie Britain is now very large, but smaller than previous version) to allow the more numerious European Civs to expand hence Africa and Asia have been reduced considerably in size. Each Civ should have room for 2-3 cities without neighbor overlap at start. Land bridges connecting the continents from the previous version have been removed, the AI eventually does fine without them!

This map is a world map with a VERY enlarged Europe to accomodate the large number of civilizations there relative to what is found in other regions.

The strategic resources have been placed where you might expect them, no elephants should be dwelling in Canada!

If you wish for a more random experience on the world map, here is how---

Open up the Civ 3 editor and Rules > edit > Natural Resources; make suggested changes as below

Natural resource redistribution
FISH strategic 900 (lower number for less fish)
Whales strategic 200
OASIS strategic 100

If you use luxury, the resources will clump together, ie groups of 3-5 fish or more will appear in one area. Test and adjust until you are satisfied with the outcome.

If you do not make this change, few fish, whales and oasis show up

Close
Map >Redistribute Natural resources.
Map >Redistribute goody huts.


I suggest you do this without looking at the map too closely else you may spoil the fun as to which Civ has 10 silk resources generated near its start location

Once done, set back to bonus resource.

To use
Place in your scenarios folder ie C:\Program Files\Civilization III\Conquests\Scenarios

Select CIV 3 content and select CCM_EuroCentric9(Standard).biq

Select who you want to play and you are off to conquest and glory!

 

[Civinator]

Royal Garrison SW requires Monarchy, so it can be used by any civ with the same government. Culture adjustments won't affect that either way.

Anthony, some years ago I made testings in SOE with government specific buildings: The results when a city was conquered were:

GWs did always stay in the city, but only appeared on the city screen, when the civ that holds that city is in the proper government.

SWs were always razed, even when beeing in the proper government.

Normal buildings were always razed when having culture (even when beeing in the same government).

Normal buildings without culture had the normal change to survive the conquest of the city and appeared on the city screen, when beeing in the proper government.

After your post I made a fast test in Debug mod, placing the Royal Garrison in a city and conquering the city with a civ that was in monarchy as government. The RG-SW was razed when the city was conquered.

 

[Civinator]

Who says, that an army must be an army?
Who says, that a leader must be a leader?

I feared, these sentences will cause some confusion -and they did. In my eyes the best army for C3C is still if there is no army. So I excluded the option to build armies in CCM. If someone changed that barrier of disabling armies, the army-unit in CCM is set to the best settings I know for them.

But this all is only "conventional" thinking. As the "army-flag" is free in CCM, it could be used in a different way. I experiment with the advanced autoproduction of settlers that don´t have the king-flag, but the army-flag and an additional setting of the palace that allows to autoproduce "armies" without leaders in that city. As far as I have seen, the AI uses these "army-settlers" very well. On the other side there will be a locataion (the capital) where settlers can be normally produced from start, too.

I don´t know yet, if the "houseboat-settler"-bug will dissapear with "army"-settlers instead of "king"-settlers. If this should be the case, the pallettes of the settler units must be adjusted to "army-palettes". My friend Vuldacon wrote a tutorial about the procedure of changing the unit palette.

Even when this change from "king"- to "army"-settlers doesn´t fix the houseboat-bug, it seems that the new setting is very interesting, especially when the coast of the settler is very high and the settler can´t be disbanded.

 

[SteamCiv]

CCM so far:

Its turn 530 Regent mode and into the early mid 21st century. Germany is taking over the world, getting NASA while I just got early submarines. Out of the 32 civilizations that the game started with, perhaps 16 are active (yes, I used the C3 editor to add a couple hundred more turns as there is still much to be discovered). Carthage controls Africa and 7 rubber. It even controls a city on north Britannia, piked from the now fallen Celts.

The map is a variation of the 100x100 , "Eurocentric 5," I earlier posted. Play is "new world style" with USA in Ireland's area and the Celts(Canada) sharing the enlarged Britain (the terrain altered to make it more accommodating with less mountains and swamps). CCM rules have been altered to have a settler every 40 turns instead of 20 and the South American Civs "crippled" to stay more in line with the New World aspects.

The goal here is to give the flavor of the accurate world map but each civ has a chance of surviving at the start with some room to expand with 2-3 cities without overlap in its approximate geographical location. Hence, Portugal can set up a couple of cities without being squeezed right away by Spain . If contacted by Mongols demanding gold early in the game, one has an idea they are on the other side of the world and can safety be ignored.

One rule, Human Player does not start wars, but if an AI civ does, it is fine to stick with the war if they are not going to give up at least 10-20 gold a turn. This is to avoid taking advantage of a weak city of a peaceful AI nearby.

So far it is working pretty good and challenging:

1 The adjusted CCM settler rate is fine for this size of map. I LOVE this concept of auto-producing settlers from the palace, I dislike horribly the concept of "settler factory cities."
2 Civs depend a lot on the buildings auto producing units (CCM is designed for LARGE maps so this is to be expected, a unit auto-producing every 10 turns for a Civ with 5-7 cities will have more of an impact than with a large map of 10-14 cities). I like this auto-production concept.
3 CCM Money seems to work just fine. Its needed to buy luxuries to accommodate larger cities from highway robbery civs that raise the trade rates every 20 turns.
4 its easer to manage the small number of cities
5 NO map trading , a plus, the world remains mysterious until somebody researches satellites. This has happened by Germany and I better refrain from going to war with them, continuing to pay their demanded bribes. Very few places remain uncolonized and the Americas have been cleared of barbarians, even England, way ahead of me, got a ship to the Americas and had a couple of cites set up there.
6 lethal bombardment from at least some of the aircraft have been turned off in original CCM. Germany hammered a one pop defender village mercilessly with about 26 heavy bombers several turns in a row. An adjacent coolie labored building a road. Most German aircraft were B-29's with an He177 and HE 111 thrown in. They slathered explosives on with a trowel. Still, it required them to send in ground forces to defeat that unit and capture the village. This is a good thing.
7. In future games the aircraft range might be altered downward a bit by myself for the smaller map accommodation, but otherwise, all else seems to scale ok.
8. the tech discovery pace seems to be fine, I actually can use bowmen before noticing I just discovered tech that allows the production of Mech Infantry.
9. houseboat bug appeared several times but the save game of the expanded editor helped to locate the offending settler (where he was deleted)

Suggestions

I do not like my workers upgrading into partisans, I think the barracks system might be reworked to accommodate them as an auto-unit:
--warriors> upgrades to
--?????irregulars??? >upgrades to
--partisans >upgrades to
--guerrillas
Workers should still be in the build queue at a later stage, more for the AI's sake, so they can have workers to help develop distant lands they colonize. This comment might be made in ignorance, I have not really studied the barracks system as you have it set up, as it might be integral to each governments uniqueness.

As units I do like the partisans, I just gave a German self propelled some grief when together, with a stream of German units, it came through my territory on the way to attack someone else without even asking for rights of passage (how rude).

Maybe another barracks relegated to "sub pen," small wonder auto-producing subs, and this is the only way of getting them. If the "sub-bug" still exists, subs therefore might include "hidden nationality." The auto-production would limit their availability as this type of unit but be more usable, as otherwise, if one stumbles over them by accident, an unexpected war would occur(the sub-bug).

Settlers and workers no support cost (Unless built). Settler might have a defense of 3 or so such so if the AI cannot settle and collects hordes them in the cities, they can provide a defense role. They also might be provided with terra-forming abilities(use appropriate worker animations) so they might be used a workers in the meantime (but do not set the terraforming flag or they will not settle).
Settlers as army unit, intriguing.

 

[Wolfshade]

5 NO map trading , a plus, the world remains mysterious until somebody researches satellites.

Nope. It remains mysterious until the 1st human player galley. Egyptians revealed America with a galley, you know. And before this a galley circumnavigated around Eurasia. Don't say I was "lucky", I can reproduce it. America should be farther from Europe, IMHO.
Elephants in Greece, no silk in China - how do you like it? Please, re-visit resources placement, although it's good (but can be perfect ).

 

[SteamCiv]

Nope. It remains mysterious until the 1st human player galley. Egyptians revealed America with a galley, you know. And before this a galley circumnavigated around Eurasia. Don't say I was "lucky", I can reproduce it. America should be farther from Europe, IMHO.
Elephants in Greece, no silk in China - how do you like it? Please, re-visit resources placement, although it's good (but can be perfect ).

I appreciate the comments

Elephants in Greece --deliberate as the Statue of Zeus requires ivory, (and Greece should have a crack at their own cultural achievement) I'll have to look closer at CCM because that may no longer be the case. If so I will eliminate them.

No silk in China, yes, someone is going to be left out, there are 8 luxury resources (elephants occupy that odd space between luxury and strategic)
The Civ 3 style of clumping luxury resources all in one area has its advantages (that civ grabs it and must trade to get other stuff it needs) and disadvantages--with 31 civs someone gets left out.

However, this is a map with pre-placed resources so I imagine at least for the first go around players might like like things were they expect them, and have the option to later regenerate the random placement.

Yes, I will nevertheless re-examine the current location of luxury resources.

The Egyptian galley visiting America? Those lucky sons of guns. Galleys have a good chance of sinking in the ocean . The oceans are 3 squares minimum separated from the New World deliberately for that purpose. Unless there is a smaller gap of sea / coast I have overlooked, they just got lucky. Safe travel to the Americas should only come during the age of Discovery where better ships can cross without danger.

Yes, you will be able to circumnavigate with the galley, either the Americas or the Old World (both if you wish to risk an ocean sinking), as I did not change any CCM rules, and Civinator has left galleys alone, hence ocean or sea travel has a chance of a shipwreck.

However there are the vast internal areas of the map that only the satellite tech will reveal (the CCM way), unless you manage to land explorers who are not run off by the other Civs.

Once again Wolfshade, thank you for your feedback.

 

[Armoredking]

Hi, I seem to have a problem.

I have the steam version of Civ3 Complete, and this mod, and aluminum isn't appearing at the proper time. I get the pop-up for the National Aluminum Mine, and can build it, but aluminum never appears in my resources list, or anywhere on the map. I've spent close to 20 minutes scanning the entire world for aluminum, but I can never find it.

This just started happening about a month ago. Before that, I'd played to the future era on the mod with no problem, and plenty of aluminum. When I reloaded one of those saves, I could still build aluminum based units, but it no longer showed on my resources list. I've tried re-downloading the mod, and verifying the integrity of my game cache. I just did a test game without the mod, and aluminum showed up right away. Am I missing something. Aluminum is revealed at Mass Production, correct? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Civinator]

Hi, I seem to have a problem.

I have the steam version of Civ3 Complete, and this mod, and aluminum isn't appearing at the proper time. I get the pop-up for the National Aluminum Mine, and can build it, but aluminum never appears in my resources list, or anywhere on the map. I've spent close to 20 minutes scanning the entire world for aluminum, but I can never find it.

This just started happening about a month ago. Before that, I'd played to the future era on the mod with no problem, and plenty of aluminum. When I reloaded one of those saves, I could still build aluminum based units, but it no longer showed on my resources list. I've tried re-downloading the mod, and verifying the integrity of my game cache. I just did a test game without the mod, and aluminum showed up right away. Am I missing something. Aluminum is revealed at Mass Production, correct? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Armoredking and welcome to these forums.

It´s correct, in CCM betatest biq v1.7 aluminum should be available with the tech Mass Production. I don´t know if Steam changed something in your settings. I quickly created a Debug-biq for you. So here you only have 24 civs available (as I hadn´t the time for a fine adjustmentfor 31 civs and this isn´t needed here for the purposes of this biq), you should be able to start a CCM game, wghere the complete map with all resources on the map can be seen from start. So you should see from turn 1 of a CCM game, if there is any aluminium on the map that are produced by your steam version of C3C.

The upload of this Debug-biq is temporarily, as I´m now very short by upload capacities at CFC (nearly my complete 60 MBs are used). So please give me a hint when you have downloaded the Debug biq and if it works for you.

 

[Armoredking]

Hi Armoredking and welcome to these forums.

It´s correct, in CCM betatest biq v1.7 aluminum should be available with the tech Mass Production. I don´t know if Steam changed something in your settings. I quickly created a Debug-biq for you. So here you only have 24 civs available (as I hadn´t the time for a fine adjustmentfor 31 civs and this isn´t needed here for the purposes of this biq), you should be able to start a CCM game, wghere the complete map with all resources on the map can be seen from start. So you should see from turn 1 of a CCM game, if there is any aluminium on the map that are produced by your steam version of C3C.

The upload of this Debug-biq is temporarily, as I´m now very short by upload capacities at CFC (nearly my complete 60 MBs are used). So please give me a hint when you have downloaded the Debug biq and if it works for you.

Downloaded, thanks. I'll test it shortly.

 

[Civinator]

SteamCiv, thank you very much for your report and your input. I´m surprised about the fun this mod triggers on such small maps, as map sizes under 200x200 were not my focus when creating this mod.

Suggestions
I do not like my workers upgrading into partisans--guerrillas

The upgrade path will stay for the next biq as this setting saves a precious building slot that otherwise has to be used for separate autoproduced partisans and guerillas. If these units with the enslave option to other partisans/guerillas could be produced normally, they would spoil the game.

Maybe another barracks relegated to "sub pen," small wonder auto-producing subs, and this is the only way of getting them. If the "sub-bug" still exists, subs therefore might include "hidden nationality." The auto-production would limit their availability as this type of unit but be more usable, as otherwise, if one stumbles over them by accident, an unexpected war would occur(the sub-bug).

Yes, an autoproducing subpen for all civs has good chances to come with the next biq. The subs will not get the HN-flag, as the sub-bug in my eyes is the "minor evil" compared to free shiphunting by human players on peaceful civs.

Settlers and workers no support cost (Unless built). Settler might have a defense of 3 or so such so if the AI cannot settle and collects hordes them in the cities, they can provide a defense role. They also might be provided with terra-forming abilities(use appropriate worker animations) so they might be used a workers in the meantime (but do not set the terraforming flag or they will not settle).

This can only be a problem on small maps. With bigger map sizes of CCM at least in era 1-3 you can never have enough settlers to settle. If the terraforming capabilities would be added to the settler units without adding the terraforming strategy, this would be a huge advantage for the huiman player, what is not intended. If the terraforming strategy would be added to the settlers, too, you are right: This would severly hamper the AI.

Settlers as army unit, intriguing.

The army flag in the unit setting does (nearly) the same job as the king flag: It provides, that the unit cannot been build normally -with one exception. So the upgrading to this kind of settlers can function, the palace must additionally gain the flag "army can be build without leader". This means, in the capital (and only in the capital as long as no other building receives that flag, too) settlers can additionally be produced normally (what fits to the wishes of some civers when you look in the current RAT succession game).

The army flag can be used for settlers, as they have 0,0 A/D value. At present I can´t say, if this setting fixes the "houseboat-settler-bug". It´s a try. The backside of this setting is, that the palettes of the settlers must be reworked, otherwise you would only see some sparkling ghosts.

 

[Armoredking]

So, after spending about 10 minutes scanning the debug map, there is no aluminum to be found. Any idea on how to fix it? I re-installed Civ3 this morning, and have downloaded the mod again.

 

[Civinator]

So, after spending about 10 minutes scanning the debug map, there is no aluminum to be found. Any idea on how to fix it? I re-installed Civ3 this morning, and have downloaded the mod again.

Armoredking, this is the first time, such a problem was reported. CCM uses Vuldacon´s graphics for aluminium: It is a red heap and not a tin as in standard Civ3. Are you looking for the correct graphic? The graphic can be found as the 7th graphic in the CCM resource file.

 

[Armoredking]

I'm an idiot. Sorry about that. Great mod by the way, and thanks for the help.

 

[Civinator]

I'm an idiot. Sorry about that. Great mod by the way, and thanks for the help.

Armoredking, this can´t be true, as you like CCM . You are very welcome.

 

[ThERat]

After almost 10 years, my C3C disc finally gave up and I had to buy Civ 3 complete from steam. I can confirm that no issues appear with this version of the game.

CCM is still as good as ever (?). Still waiting for the world map

 

[SteamCiv]

SteamCiv, thank you very much for your report and your input. I´m surprised about the fun this mod triggers on such small maps, as map sizes under 200x200 were not my focus when creating this mod.


The upgrade path will stay for the next biq as this setting saves a precious building slot that otherwise has to be used for separate autoproduced partisans and guerillas. If these units with the enslave option to other partisans/guerillas could be produced normally, they would spoil the game.

Yes, an autoproducing subpen for all civs has good chances to come with the next biq. The subs will not get the HN-flag, as the sub-bug in my eyes is the "minor evil" compared to free shiphunting by human players on peaceful civs.

I'm just going to have to like my gorillas the way they are then. Perhaps it was the abrupt "no more free workers" from worker houses. If I want more workers, I have to deliberately set aside a city to build them now.

I understand your logic here at last, especially in relation to the building limit. I find it remarkable you have used all 256 buildings and have to use them in the most efficient way possible. In fact, the threads I discovered a few hours ago about the AI and getting them to build artillery (they don't) and the auto-producing building chain along those lines was most enlightening.

Yes there can be some zesty discussion whether hidden nationality for submarines should be on or not:

Hidden Nationality for subs OFF

1--AI nations stumble over each other's subs unleashing war on each other. While they are sorting this out, the human player is not facing the full force of the two belligerents if in conflict with any of them. It might make it difficult for the AI to maintain an alliance against the human player (if that is what they do), because it is conceivable, in executing their attack, they may run over each other's subs, and stop their attack to then declare and execute war on each other.

2--Before sub detecting equipment is available, the human player navy might run over a sub triggering an unwanted war with another nation. By the same token, the human player's sub may not be detected and tripped over by an AI, triggering an unwanted war.

3--the human player can use the sub-bug to advantage. Lay out some submarines near the anticipated path of a nation ship with which war is desired. When that navy runs over it, war is declared without a infamy penalty.


Hidden nationality for subs ON

1-- as described the evil of "free ship-hunting by human players on peaceful civs."

2--nations with subs in the water are constantly sniping friend and foe alike, just like the guerrillas, slavers and others on land.

3--The AI's, while sniping each other's navy on their way to crush the player or other civ, would at least be able to maintain an alliance under those types of conditions (though they may sink each others troop transports loaded with stacks of doom, OOPS)

Solutions?

I agree it can be a big advantage for HN on for the human player. Personally, I can exercise a little discipline garnered from the board game days. I can make my own desirable changes in the editor as needed and then emplace a "house rule" ship-hunting on civs I'm not at war with is CHEATING unless attacking other subs. It seems on land with slavers and lawyers, if you do not get them first, the AI will use HN get you, peace or no . Yes, it seems just like in board games one can create "house rules " for themselves to facilitate certain things as long as it is not too cumbersome.

I experimented with SCOUTS along these lines making them invisible,(trying to find more of a reason to build them early on over something else) that's where I discovered the sub -bug and researched the invisible flags more. One of my scouts died and I was at war with a nation early BC. If I started the AI's with scouts, the same occurred, they were at war immediately in the first few turns because someone ran into a hidden scout. Too bad no one knows where in the hex code to fix that, as I understand in an earlier version of CIV 3, they had the invisible flag work properly.

 

[SteamCiv]

As far as the civs trading techs, as soon as someone researches something, especially early on, all the rest have it because they are so fastidious about trading.

Has there been any experiments along the line of making only every other tech tradable, that is one tech cannot be traded but another tech adjacent on the tree can be traded then the next one not and so on; the end result each civ must research at least half the techs across all ages?

 

[CommandoBob]

As far as the civs trading techs, as soon as someone researches something, especially early on, all the rest have it because they are so fastidious about trading.

Interesting. I haven't noticed this in the Rat Succession Games using CCM. Can you download some of those saves and validate/verify this?

Or is this happening in your mod of CCM?