CE vs SE Head-to-Head Experiment Part II

[Dirk1302]

Well i try some cottages in the capital next game i play, i can't really tell if it works better or not without trying. In a game on epic Emperor i played yesterday i got liberalism 1100AD just beating the AI. I made a huge mistake in this game (Not realizing that i had Hereditary rule for happiness, have gotten to much used to representation from pyramids apparently and relying on the culture slider). Due to unhappiness i didn't grow enough and i couldn't use the culture slider this time because i also was completely out of money. In this situation after lightbulbing paper and education liberalism took 95 turns to resarch (!!). I could get this down to 35 turns by assigning specialists at a food decifit in most cities.

500 AD is very early, almost not of this world.

I had a great position 100 BC with 6 good cities and tech parity with the other AI's. If i had realized that i could have used units for happiness i think i could have gotten liberalism 800-900. My position now is not bad either but it could have been much better.

Besides the mistake from not realizing HR for happiness i made some others which i list below because they might be instructive.

- Going with 8 barbarian axes for an unrelevant barbarian city, capturing it at a loss of 5 axes and subsequently having to pay for this useless city it had potential but not at this time.

- Neglecting to make enough workers, making workers always feels like a pain because it stagnates the city for a while. They are essential though, i still have forests in my capital FC where there should have been farms.

- Building more units then is needed(running pacifism), i was planning to take out 2 nice american cities, built loads of cats and swords only to find that i needed only half of them. I think here is where experience comes in, i haven't played too much games where i actually attacked my neighbours. Of course the axes i lost with the barbarian city would have come in handy here.

- Forgetting to get granaries and lighthouses and harbors in some cities, they are cheap and every city that can have them should have them asap. I should have whipped more and farmed more 0 to 500 AD then i could have run caste system with a good supporting infra structure after 500 AD. Also more courthouses would have helped.

 

[uberfish]

I played Hybrid econ, cottaged the floodplains in Moscow, had to self-research every tech in the game higher than Banking because my AIs couldn't research worth a damn, and launched in 1750 anyway.

I did not lightbulb anything. No point when you have tons of trade material anyway. I still took the Lib -> Dem slingshot aiming for the early SoL in 1020, then used a research order of Steel, Biology, Computers, Assembly Line, Rocketry, Industrialism, Railroad, Fusion, Robotics, Genetics, Ecology.

I built an academy and settled 6 other early GP in Moscow (should have built an outside academy in St Pete - small mistake here), used 9 more for golden ages, and had a late merchant to cash and spare scientist.

I conquered Korea with ele/cats and later America with gren/cat/cannon.


Final civics:

Representation
Free Speech
Emancipation
Mercantilism (because everyone else was running it too until very near the end)
Free Religion

 

[futurehermit]

^^^ nice job. Did you run many cottages outside of the capital?

 

[DaveMcW]

Scores so far:

CE
1730 AD
1760 AD

Hybrid
1750 AD

SE
1929 AD

I'm still hoping for a better showing for SE.

 

[frob2900]

Heh, that doesnt reflect well on SE at all

How's your game coming along Futurehermit?

 

[futurehermit]

It's delayed due to a preoccupation with Gandhi. I'll still finish it though Like I said before though, I think direct comparisons are a bit compromised because of civics usage, etc. but I still like the discussion.

 

[uberfish]

I guess I'd better post my saves so that people can argue over whether I was in fact running a CE. I did build a lot of cottages but would often run scientists from a library when a city was near population cap or by taking citizens off a mine when high production wasn't needed.

I also made minimal use of whipping in favour of just growing cities large and producing a steady high output of production and science.

 

[mutax2003]

Looks like CE has the advantage for space race. We now need to start one with the goal of domination victory. Check out my other thread regarding the setup.

 

[acidsatyr]

How can you base your conclusion on total of 4 reports, and monarch level?

 

[futurehermit]

^^^agreed. it's also debatable whether the CEs were actually running primarily a CE after all...

 

[uberfish]

Running just one GP farm sounds like a CE to me

Similarly if a player ran cottages and Bureaucracy in her capital, and mainly specialists elsewhere I would call that a SE.

 

[futurehermit]

^^^the problem is threefold: 1) The gpfarm was the *capital* thus negating cottages in the most powerful city of the CE (using bureaucracy); 2) Many lightbulbed beakers early on similar to SE; 3) Running traditional SE civics

It's not that a CE can't do these things I suppose (although 1 seems problematic), it's just that the lines become blurred and to say that this is a pure CE and look how great it did seems a bit premature...

 

[mutax2003]

Civics can be tricky to define, both will be running heriditary rule. If representation is possible, then both will be running that just for the extra happiness and research. As for caste system, it can be useful in both situations during war to fund your expense (merchant specialist) and expand border. Most games if the pacifism become available, both would be switch to that for the extra GP points. However, CE player is more likely to switch free religion sooner to get the extra research bonus. Maybe we need to simplify the definitions. How about: If the majority of the tiles are cottages, then it is a CE economy. But if the majority of the tiles are farms, then it is a SE economy. If it is nearly half and half, then it is a hybrid economy.

 

[frob2900]

How can you base your conclusion on total of 4 reports, and monarch level?

Difficulty level is a good point. But some level has to be chosen, and to be honest the highest difficulty levels are a very different game since the AI has so many bonuses..

For the purpose of fast space wins, isnt Monarch a good choice since not so much will depend on wars/trades? (The only times I've won on immortal have involved war, war, war... Though I was actually running a CE then )

 

[DaveMcW]

How can you base your conclusion on total of 4 reports, and monarch level?

I'm still waiting for yours.

 

[acidsatyr]

How about: If the majority of the tiles are cottages, then it is a CE economy. But if the majority of the tiles are farms, then it is a SE economy. If it is nearly half and half, then it is a hybrid economy.

Its not that simple. If somebody has 80 % tiles with cottages and 20% farms and specialists, yet 80% of toal research comes from those specialists, this is more SE than it is CE, thats the point.

 

[aelf]

I agree that whether it's an SE or a CE should be decided by how much of the research is done by either specialists (including lightbulbing) or cottages. A GP farm capital and running SE-friendly civics would almost certainly result in an SE, even if the many of the other cities work cottages. The question is when the cottages gradually take over most of the work (as usually happens, since conquered territories would feature cottages), do you still consider it as having played with an SE?

 

[mice]

How about a 'no cottages' vs. 'no caste system/pacifism' .
No other rules. Choose any leader on the same map. Earliest victory wins.

The early game could be very similar, but late game would show up the difference between cottage spam and farm econ.

Both can do a fast space race or a fast domination so it would be a good head to head.

 

[acidsatyr]

I agree that whether it's an SE or a CE should be decided by how much of the research is done by either specialists (including lightbulbing) or cottages. A GP farm capital and running SE-friendly civics would almost certainly result in an SE, even if the many of the other cities work cottages. The question is when the cottages gradually take over most of the work (as usually happens, since conquered territories would feature cottages), do you still consider it as having played with an SE?

As long as most of your research comes from specialists, be it from specialists/representation directly, or lightbulbing, you admit your economy is se; later in the game IF you start concentrating on cottages and run civics that support cottages, then your either running a sort of inbetween se and ce, or your fully ce by now (i.e. all specialists fired, no se civics, etc etc). So your civ can be fully se say pre-liberalism, then its mostly ce. At the end of the day, you'll see where did most of research come from so you can say you played one way or another. I said in other thread, you know you wont ever play ce, simply by not building any cottages, but you dont know for sure if youll end up playing se. And yes if you start your game by farming capital, refusing buearocracy, generating +80 gpt and running pacifim, then yes you are in fact running se.

 

[beancounter]

After looking at Daves save games I would have to disagree with you guys. He is running a CE with an awesome GP Farm, not a SE.

Granted most CE players cottage the capital, but Moscow was an awesome GP Farm. And it would only be a so-so cottage city. I think he could only place 8 cottages in the city. Compare that to the food resources - 5 Flood Plains, 2 Pigs, 1 Rice. Plus the commerce bonus specials - 1 gem & 1 silver.

At the 25 AD save he was running 2 Merchants in his entire Civ. Plus he was getting 2 Scientists from the Great Library. Even counting the 2 Scientists from the GL, only 18 base science was coming from specialists. Counting the library he was getting 22.5 from specialists out of his total science of 124. That is only 18% of his science rate. That does not seem like a SE economy.

Even at the 1000 AD save, specialists only count for 65 Science out of a empire total of 352.

I think you guys are getting distracted about civics & lightbulbing. To say a CE can not run pacifism or lightbulb is like saying a SE must set the research rate at 0% and can not tech trade.

The civics do not matter. In the early game the best builder civics are rep and pacifism. Plus, Peter is a Philo civ. Why would you not play to his strength and build an awsome GP farm? The question is Farm/Specialists in every city vs Cottage/and a single GP Farm. Daves game, in my opinion is clearly a CE. Forget civics and lightbulbing because either economy can and should do both.