Censorship in civ 5

[Blitzscream]

You can still use the mod, just not have it available in the in-game mod store.

It's no different than the fact that X-Box won't let you create an account with a user name that includes a long chain of expletives, or that you'll be asked to leave a diner if you're shouting and yelling.

You still have the freedom to do what you want, just not within their domain and in view of other customers. If you want your Hitler mod, you can have it. I don't think this is a serious encroachment of censorship.

If you think this is bad, then you should see the Chinese release of World of Warcraft. You can't have exposed skulls or bones, so the undead player race has entirely different models that look ridiculous. And much of the armor in the game is covered in skulls and spikes, so that has been changed as well. And we should all be much more concerned with the fact that

Personally, I haven't been impressed with the in-game mod browser, it's very very slow for me, but that's another issue entirely.

Also, if I were Germany, I'd be less concerned with video game Hitler, and more concerned with the fact that the German engineering conglomerate Siemens is the only company in the world that was willing to overlook moral complications and design a telecommunications system for Iran that was specifically tailored to completely and totally facilitates direct oppression and manipulation by a central government.

But that's also an entirely different issue.

If you're really concerned with video game Hitler censorship, then the proper avenue for your frustration is government and parties that create a market for censorship. It is nice when a company takes a stand, but impractical to expect a company to do so.

Just to let you know I'm talking about censoring things in the MOD database as a whole not just Hitler. But I should make this clear just because you want something in CIV doesn't always make it right. The main point I'm getting at is that not all historical things should be excluded from mods.

 

[Sonereal]

Just to let you know I'm talking about censoring things in the MOD database as a whole not just Hitler. But I should make this clear just because you want something in CIV doesn't always make it right. The main point I'm getting at is that not all historical things should be excluded from mods.

Because it's illegal in Germany. Its possible to download a mod with Hitler in it over Civfanatics but 2k just isn't allowed to have the mod available in the mod browser.

 

[lschnarch]

Well for a scenario or MOD only I would think Hitler should be allowed. But I can see no reason as to why Mohammad would make the MOD or scenario great. And just to add it is heresy in Muslims point of view to depict him in such a way.

Well, I'd guess a lot of Jewish people would be upset to have to meet Hitler.
If you don't care about them, why one should care about the other guy?

You see, it is always a question of the point from where you're coming.

Actually, I don't want to have any of them in my games, but saying the one is ok and the other one constitues an insult somehow doesn't work.

 

[Ighten]

I actually congratulate the devs on sticking with an international platform for distributing the mods.. It will cause the odd hiccup when you cross legal boundaries (Germany laws and insignia) but its hardly an issue, just download it here.. The alternative is to have mutiple regioned platforms which would have caused incompatible mods..

 

[ezwip]

Everyone loved Stalin. He was a super duper kind of guy.

 

[Humakty]

Mr M. was more of a philosoph, methinks. He didn't conquered much himself, at his death only arabian peninsula was part of his realm. He 'just' created a whole religion and school of thought. He can't be compared to Hitler in any way (pillage does NOT equate a sane economy)(declaring war on everyone IS a bad idea)(etc...), he was more alike Jesus and other people falling into this category. (call it Prophet/Messiah/Son of God/Whatever You Please)

Educated guess : He is not ingame 'cause Islam law forbid to represent him. And it would be quite insulting to muslims to put him in if they don't want it.

Plus he would be the only (Prophet/.../WYP) represented as a civ leader.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

Just to let you know I'm talking about censoring things in the MOD database as a whole not just Hitler. But I should make this clear just because you want something in CIV doesn't always make it right. The main point I'm getting at is that not all historical things should be excluded from mods.

I agree with you entirely! I think my post may not have made it clear, but I'm entirely in agreement with you on this issue.

My post was more towards the people talking about censorship in broader terms, and Germany's specific laws and so forth.

 

[Humakty]

Censorship is supposed to keep the game decent enougth it can be played by a large public. Apart for city rasing, a 8 years old could play civ 5.
(official declaration : I-have-not-let-any-of-my-niece-or-nephew-get-even-close-of-my-computer)

I know I almost never turn my back to a game because some normally censored content is in, but I do so if its going to much one way or another. (Hunting evil germans/irakis/whatever all day long, so that you don't accidentally shoot some 'nice' guy >< being forced into some fascistic parody of gameplay (a clever example ?))

 

[Psyringe]

Because it's illegal in Germany. Its possible to download a mod with Hitler in it over Civfanatics but 2k just isn't allowed to have the mod available in the mod browser.

This is not correct. Depicting Hitler is not illegal in Germany (and quite normal in history books, some movies, and the like). If 2KGreg says that doing so is "unlawful", then he's misinformed.

It is, however, illegal in Germany to glorify Nazism and to depict certain Nazi symbols (this is based on very old legislation that was enacted by the Allies after defeating Nazi Germany). Whether depicting Hitler in a Civ mod could be seen as glorifying Nazism is debatable. There are certain people here who would see it this way, but if the matter was actually taken to court, I don't see on which grounds 2K could be adjudged. There is a risk for games that include Nazi symbols to be banned from being openly marketed and sold if someone complains about them at the office for youth protection, and if this office agrees with the complaint. However, this office has never cared about mods.

I think what's really going on is that 2K doesn't want the bad publicity that could be associated with such a mod, which is understandable. Just like in the US, there are a couple of politicians here to whom video games are "the devil" (although paradoxically, here in Germany it's a conservative party that's most active in lobbying against video games). However, claiming that putting such a mod on an international server would be illegal in Germany is simply not true, and depicts German legislation as stricter than it actually is in that regard.

(Personally, btw, I think that banning Nazi depictions makes it actually easier to glorify them. Open discussions make it much easier to dispel the common myths, like some people believing that the economy actually had some merit (in fact it was doomed to either war or bankruptcy from the day it started). But that's a personal opinion and independent from the legal details described above.)

 

[evrett37]

Prior to release 2k Greg said there would be no censorship with mods..I specifically asked this question..another lie from the mouth of a traitor to the game.

 

[Licinia Eudoxia]

However, claiming that putting such a mod on an international server would be illegal in Germany is simply not true, and depicts German legislation as stricter than it actually is in that regard.

It wouldn't be illegal, but for most companies and businesses, they'd rather avoid even being asked the question, and would certainly prefer to never even risk going to court.

(Personally, btw, I think that banning Nazi depictions makes it actually easier to glorify them. Open discussions make it much easier to dispel the common myths, like some people believing that the economy actually had some merit (in fact it was doomed to either war or bankruptcy from the day it started). But that's a personal opinion and independent from the legal details described above.)

I agree. The gaming community is often pretty bad about this, and in America, our fetish with World War 2 is partially to blame. The History Channel on American television often devoted a ridiculous portion of it's programming towards World War 2 coverage, and obviously, I'd have to guess that 'World War 2' makes up a large percentage of all strategy and shooter games.

That, combined with the aesthetic of the Third Reich and such, creates an almost celebratory mythology where some gaming nerds like to discuss all sorts of Nazi generals and officers and tactics and such, to a greater extent than just about any other army ever.

But by making Nazis taboo, it sort of empowers that appeal. The aesthetic and drama of Nazi history helps as well, getting used even in fictional settings without actual 'Nazis.'

There's a sort of similar phenomenon with Japanese animation/video games and the Catholic church, where mysticism, imagery and language and aesthetic from Catholicism are adapted (with or without the use of the word 'Catholicism'), and used in fictional settings or stories.

 

[Justicex]

Everyone loved Stalin. He was a super duper kind of guy.

"History is written by the winners." Since Stalin was cunning enough to let Hitler weaken himself and the Allies, then try to swoop in like a buzzard to pick the bones, he is a hero. The only reason we aren't living in a world called Russia is because Hitler focused his charge on Russia and decimated their military enough that when Russia and the Allies met in Berlin, the Allies saw Russia as friendly and Stalin had no desire to correct that assumption.

After that particular mod was pulled, I did some research into exactly what is allowed and not allowed. Psyringe you are half right. It IS infact illegal to depict Hitler, the NDSAP and Nazi iconography in Germany with the exception being for educational and enlightenment purposes. Civilization V does not cover that. Movies do cover that since Hitler is generally portrayed as a buffon or a cartoonishly evil caricature that "gets his in the end". History books are educational and therefore allowed.

EDIT: After re-reading your post Psyringe, are you from Germany? My response is based from what I discovered through Google. I'm not so sure which one of us is right now

Either way, The mod itself had it's issues. While you only see the Dawn of Man image once in the game, it had a picture of Auschwitz in it. Illegal? Not so much. In bad taste? Most definitely.

Hitler is really the only leader that I am aware of that specifically has laws regarding the use of his image. There is no laws about using the image of Mohammed, but since Muslims are very protective of their prophet, it is in everyone's best interest to abide by their wishes.

Besides, for me personally, it makes no sense, and is just bad form, to use religious figures anyway. Could you imagine using (or whuppping) a civ called Vatican with the Pope as leader?

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: If Godwins law strikes again massively, and it seems so after reading the last posts, i will close this thread.

This is not correct. Depicting Hitler is not illegal in Germany (and quite normal in history books, some movies, and the like). If 2KGreg says that doing so is "unlawful", then he's misinformed.

That's not completely correct.
The legal service of german parliament says it can be seen as illegal, when only his bust is portrayed, see here,

Das „Kopfbild“ Adolf Hitlers wird von der Rechtsprechung ebenfalls als Kennzeichen im Sinne des § 86a StGB betrachtet, weil entsprechende Bilder während des Nationalsozialismus massenhaft gerade als Symbol der NSDAP und des NS-Staats verwendet worden seien.

Short, unprecise translation: The "head image" Hitlers can be seen as a sign of forbidden organisations after § 86a StGB, because it has been used in the NS time in the same way as the symbol of the NSDAP.

Prior to release 2k Greg said there would be no censorship with mods..I specifically asked this question..another lie from the mouth of a traitor to the game.

Following the laws of the countries where the game is released can't be seen as censorship.
And quote your source please.

 

[Wardancing]

I said this might happen, back in a "Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer" thread. The only thing missing now is someone having their steam/civ5 banned for repeating to upload the mods.

The bonus to the latter is that if they ban your steam account, you lose All your games, lol.

 

[Mark Havel]

Prior to release 2k Greg said there would be no censorship with mods..I specifically asked this question..another lie from the mouth of a traitor to the game.

That might have been said without really acknowledging the legal realities in some western European countries. And the law will always be stronger than whatever rules 2K and Firaxis might decide it pleases them to set up. By the way, you people are talking about Germany but I'm not sure this kind of dubious stuff would have much more success in France legally-speaking.

 

[Silvis]

Honestly, I don't see how censorship would have really any barring on a historically inclined game. I mean, the whole game and civilopedia is packed with historical information. I doubt any of the governments would even care about MODs anyway. Especially, since they are being made by people all over the world. On top of all that, no matter the country you belong to, opinions can be bias as to censorship so it should not be enforced. Let the gamers game and the modders mod! Free GAMING/MODDING! If you don't like it don't download it

 

[tokala]

AFAIK the underlying problem is that in Germany videogames are legally concidered "toys" rather than "art". And only for documentary and artistic purposes there is some leeway regarding the legality of depicting Nazi symbolism. So the latest hollywood nonsense is allowed to depict as many swastikas as they like, while even a hardcore history simulation like HoI is not.

 

[BobDole]

I said this might happen, back in a "Zero day DLC = disrespecting the customer" thread. The only thing missing now is someone having their steam/civ5 banned for repeating to upload the mods.

The bonus to the latter is that if they ban your steam account, you lose All your games, lol.

This is so far the only thing I believe that we've heard that was taken down.....and it was clearly stated that it was because of legal issues, not censorship per se. You can still download and play the mod, it just can't be on the browser or else 2k/Firaxis gets in trouble in Germany possibly. When everyone was talking about the mod browser and possible censorship, they were worried about stuff like 2K taking down mods that competed with DLC they released. This is totally different from that.....unless 2K secretly has some Hitler DLC coming up (think we all know how likely that is).

 

[ShadowoftheDark]

I'd love to play Hitler mods. This is just a freakin' game, why get so much worked over it.

 

[lschnarch]

Following the laws of the countries where the game is released can't be seen as censorship.
And quote your source please.

By Mr. 2K Greg (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9550298&postcount=69):

First and foremost, 2K and Firaxis will not be "evaluating and judging" the content of the mods on the mod hub.