Cental African Civs in Civ7?

What should be the name?

  • 1. Mali

    Votes: 10 90.9%
  • 2. Songhai

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11
And it's just as well: Actually Central Africa has very few good candidates, until you cross the continent and get into the Zimbabwe - Mupangubwe orbit or the Ajuran/Angouche Sultanates in the Horn.

In West Africa, though, how about Kanem-Bornu? The Saifwa Dynasty lasted over 700 years, a world's record, and they were the first west African state to acquire and exploit both iron and horses - in fact, were even more of a cavalry-heavy military force than either Mali or the Songhai.
Now what I know actually.
Were Kanem Bornu cavalry superior to Mandekalus of both Mali and Songhai? Did the said empire called this unit 'Mandekalu' as well?
and what category of cavalry Mandekalus actually belongs to? Lightcavalry or Heavycavalry? (and were they actually parrallel to Euro Knights?)
 
As best as I can make out Mandekalu is just a word that represent the Mandinka people. It's not a unique term for some special type of cavalry. The Mandinka people also had Mandekalu Infantry, Mandekalu Archers, Mandekalu traders, etc. So Mali (which was a Mandinka empire) definitely had Mandekalu Cavalry (and all the rest), Songhai (not Mandinka, but lived relatively near them) maybe may have had some as mercenaries or foreign troops (or, judging by the civ V civilopedia article, someone just went "eh, they're both muslim empires of rhe Sahel, close enough"). Kanem-Bornu, roughly halfway across the continent from the Mandinka people, probably did not have Mandekalu anything.

Since KB and Mali never fought each other we don't know which had better cavalry and since mandekalu cavalry is any mandinka that fought on horseback, it was a mix of light and heavy ranging from fully armored knights (which yes they did have) to lighter cavalry.
 
Now what I know actually.
Were Kanem Bornu cavalry superior to Mandekalus of both Mali and Songhai? Did the said empire called this unit 'Mandekalu' as well?
and what category of cavalry Mandekalus actually belongs to? Lightcavalry or Heavycavalry? (and were they actually parrallel to Euro Knights?)

As @Evie said, Mandekalu does not apply to Kanem at all. I have yet to find any detailed descriptions of Kanem-Bornu cavalry. Since the antecedents of the Kanem migrated south as the Sahara got drier before 1000 CE and are still described by an Arab traveller as 'largely nomadic' with only two 'towns' in 1000 - 1100 CE, and they traded with Tripoli/Morocco in the same period that they were starting their 'Empire', I would guess cavalry that looked a lot like the cavalry of the early Caliphates: mail armor under robes, lances and swords as primary weapons, extremely good at mobile, encircling attacks - a characteristic of all horse pastoral armies since 700 BCE at least. Their army at around 1100 CE is described as "100,000 horsemen" out of 120,000 total, which indicates an almost completely mobile, mounted force.
 
Despite successfully resisting Portuguese occupation, they essentially did it through a war of attrition. That wouldn't translate to a very attractive civ ability...
Maybe some getting bonuses when their cities are seized and lost to encourage you to lose cities. At least from a game play prespective that would result in some very interesting scenarios though that may not work so well. Or possibly large bonus when fighting against civs with a stronger military than you. Though an ability like that could also work well for Vietnam.
Sorry if that came across like I disliked Kongo. I don't. I just thought Angola might be an interesting alternative considering they both probably wouldn't be included. I'd like either one.
I'd really like to see both of them included and honestly don't see a good reason not to though I agree they probably will not be.

And also, I fell like both the Songhai and the Mali were undeniably west African, not central African.
 
Central Africa UN division contains DR Congo, R Congo, Gabon, Cameroon, C.A.R., Angola, and kind of awkwardly Chad which doesn't fit anywhere else. Personally I am really weirded out by the inclusion of Zambia, South Sudan, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi in the "East Africa" part, wasn't it done only because of them being English colonies and using Swahilli? Geographically and historically I'd put them too in 'central' category. And UN "eastern Africa" also contains Zimbabwe lol, which is quite controversial notion as you could just as easily say it is 'southern' Africa.

Honestly, someone has to say this, Central Africa, both in narrower and wider definitions, is one of the parts of the world with the poorest "density of urban - state - civilizations across history". I had a period of going through all African countries and cultures, and the only entities from this area I could envision added to this game were those kingdoms in Angola and south - western Congo (there were several but I'd just put them under umbreela terms "Kongo" and "Angola"). I vaguely recall Zambia and south - eastern Congo had some serious iron - age proto - civilizations, but archeology in this region is extremely underdeveloped still, so it's not enough data to base a faction around it. There were also tiny Ugandan kingdoms but once again: not nearly enough data, at least across the amateur Internet. :p Saying Chad has a rich history of civilizations is really stretching it, because Kanem kingdom and its Kanuri people are like 85% based outside modern Chad's borders. Almost all Subsaharan civilizations that are IMO actually viable for this kind of game are in Western or Eastern Africa, with the vast majority of Central and Southern being extremely sparsely populated until 20th century.

So far we already have "Niger river civilization zone" well covered in games like this, which are starting to routinely employ Ghana, Mali and Songhai. Ethiopia and (finally) Nubia are also in a safe space. What is really unexplored is Nigeria - Ghana zone and coastal Eastern Africa. My personal favourite which I'd love to see added in a game like this is whatever from Nigeria. Nigeria is in a really weird place, as it is the country with population density and "civilization density: unparalelled in comparision to most of Africa across last 2000 years, and yet its history and culture are completely and utterly overlooked even in our extremely niche "broad awareness of global civilizations" subcultures :p Within Nigeria you have powerful nations of Hausa, Fulani, Kanuri, Igbo and friends, Edo (Benin kingdom) and Yoruba (Oyo kingdom and others). You could make several distinctive civilizations out of it. My favourite is Yoruba by far, probably one of the most obscure world civilizations in comparisions to their achievements.
From the rest of West Africa you have very well documented Akan people in Ghana and neighbors (Ashanti kingdom), Dahomey kingdom in confusingly named country of Benin (although honestly I'd call it a city state, not a major civilization), maybe arguably Jolof/Wolof in Senegal, and maybe arguably Mossi in Burkina Faso, but they are obscure as hell, could never learn more about them. Modern countries of Guinea, Liberia, Sierra Leone and most of Ivory Coast generally didn't organize state societies and urbanization.

From eastern Africa we have mainly Swahili, Zimbabwe, Somali and Malagasy (let's just call them this way, as Merina is kind of exclusive and Madagascar is an awkward name of an island). The problem with the first two is documentation and city list, we mostly just know they did exist and performed great trade, also good luck with leaders; it is especially awkward in case of Swahilli, because its leader in civ5 and civ6 mod was essentially a Persian guy made very very brown skinned in mod graphics :p as it is the best documented one... Somali and Malagasy are great civilizations, so they'd work, only with the sad meta "problem" of those countries being in a horribly disastrous state nowadays, which could impact getting them right.
 
Maybe some getting bonuses when their cities are seized and lost to encourage you to lose cities. At least from a game play prespective that would result in some very interesting scenarios though that may not work so well. Or possibly large bonus when fighting against civs with a stronger military than you. Though an ability like that could also work well for Vietnam.
I gave a similar ability to Alexios I Komnenos so that could work.
 
As I said in this thread five days ago:

As best as I can make out Mandekalu is just a word that represent the Mandinka people. It's not a unique term for some special type of cavalry. The Mandinka people also had Mandekalu Infantry, Mandekalu Archers, Mandekalu traders, etc. So Mali (which was a Mandinka empire) definitely had Mandekalu Cavalry (and all the rest), Songhai (not Mandinka, but lived relatively near them) maybe may have had some as mercenaries or foreign troops (or, judging by the civ V civilopedia article, someone just went "eh, they're both muslim empires of rhe Sahel, close enough"). Kanem-Bornu, roughly halfway across the continent from the Mandinka people, probably did not have Mandekalu anything.

Since KB and Mali never fought each other we don't know which had better cavalry and since mandekalu cavalry is any mandinka that fought on horseback, it was a mix of light and heavy ranging from fully armored knights (which yes they did have) to lighter cavalry.
 
^ So 'Mandekalu' as F'xis viewed represented Either Mali or Songhai being yet another Horselord people? How did Mandinkans call their 'Knights' or 'Cataphracts' proxy in their language if Mandekalu is an alternative term to call their people?
Horon was the general term for cavalrymen. They imported chain mail and iron helmets from contact with Arabs, so those could resemble Cataphracts.
Special cavalrymen from the Horon were called 'Farima' which would be similar to a European Knight.

That being said their cavalry was how Mali and Songhai could easily control West Africa through military, so depicting them with a cavalry UU is accurate.
 
Speaking of African civilizations, what are the chances of having something from the East African coast in Civ7? Something like Swahili or Madagascar? They are reasonably in demand around here and would be nice additions to the game.
 
Speaking of African civilizations, what are the chances of having something from the East African coast in Civ7? Something like Swahili or Madagascar? They are reasonably in demand around here and would be nice additions to the game.
Swahili would be interesting. My problem is finding a leader for them whose ancestor wasn't either Arab or Persian.

I'd much rather focus on the Bantu people but that would be harder to make a civilization out of than the easier Kilwa Sultanate.

That being said I did find her:https://womenof1000ad.weebly.com/mwana-mkisi.html

Mwana Mkisi apparently founded Kongowea, present-day Mombasa, and was a pre-Islamic Bantu queen on the Swahili Coast.
 
Swahili and Zimbabwe are both prime candidates IMO.

Of course, technically Ethiopia is the East African civ.

I'd sort of envision a future setup where Africa has at least 8 civs

2 West African civs (Mali and a rotating spot for Ashante/Hausa/Songhai/Ghana/Benin/etc)
2 East African civs (Ethiopia and a rotating spot for Swahili/Zimabwe/Etc)
2 North African Civs (Egypt and one Maghrebine civ (Carthage if Carthage is in; a Berber or Morrocan civ of some kind if Phoenicia gets the nod instead))
1 South African civ (sigh Zulu)
1 Central African civ (Kongo or Angola).
 
I'd sort of envision a future setup where Africa has at least 8 civs

2 West African civs (Mali and a rotating spot for Ashante/Hausa/Songhai/Ghana/Benin/etc)
2 East African civs (Ethiopia and a rotating spot for Swahili/Zimabwe/Etc)
2 North African Civs (Egypt and one Maghrebine civ (Carthage if Carthage is in; a Berber or Morrocan civ of some kind if Phoenicia gets the nod instead))
1 South African civ (sigh Zulu)
1 Central African civ (Kongo or Angola).
I like this though which category would Nubia fit into? North Africa or East Africa?
 
I'd much rather focus on the Bantu people but that would be harder to make a civilization out of than the easier Kilwa Sultanate.
Yeah, I don't really think you could make a single Bantu civilization as there never was really a Bantu civilization (though I suppose it is no more ridiculous than having one Indian civ)
Swahili would be interesting. My problem is finding a leader for them whose ancestor wasn't either Arab or Persian.
I mean I do think having an Arab or Persian leader is not as good I still don't think it would be a huge issue to have one as one of Kublai Khan's alternate countries in civ 6 (I think with a DLC) is China of which he was not Chinese.
2 West African civs (Mali and a rotating spot for Ashante/Hausa/Songhai/Ghana/Benin/etc)
2 East African civs (Ethiopia and a rotating spot for Swahili/Zimabwe/Etc)
2 North African Civs (Egypt and one Maghrebine civ (Carthage if Carthage is in; a Berber or Morrocan civ of some kind if Phoenicia gets the nod instead))
1 South African civ (sigh Zulu)
1 Central African civ (Kongo or Angola).
Yeah, I like this setup though I wouldn't mind Kongo AND Angola. I do agree that a rotation of Morocco and a Berber civ would be the best setup as Egypt needs to remain in in ever iteration. I personally would rather have Ethiopia removed in favor of Swahili and Zimbabwe.
 
Ethiopia's too well known in the Western World to not be a series regular - which they pretty much are after three games in a row.

Central Africa just doesn't have the diversity of well documented civilizations to warrant two spots (unless we count Kanem Bornu, and that's more Western anyway). Angola and Kongo are pretty much the only choices, and having both at the same time is a lot of resources dor that one region.

Nubia...is kinda hard to place. Geographically I would guess being in Nile flood plains kind of make it North African, and the close cultural ties to Egypt support it. So I guess it's taking the second North African spot, but sacrificing Maghreb presence to double up on Nile pyramid builders doesn't sit right with me. If we can have nine African civs, sure, the third North African slot can be Nubia. But if not, North Africa #2 needs to be in the Maghreb, as one of Carthage/Morocco/some Berber flavor.
 
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