CFC Off Topic Turned Me Into a Fascist

[Arwon]

Not so much a peeve as a hilarious thing to point out that I have yet to see an answer to beyond "LOL" and "You're clueless". I'll probably find something else to harp on once somebody makes even a half-hearted effort at rebutting it. Fascism pretty much died out except as an insult, while liberalism stuck around and changed, which is why I consider it legitimate to use the historical definition of one and the current definition of the other, especially since classical liberalism is fairly close to what we now call libertarianism, so it has another name.

Fascists ditched all the remotely progressive, leftist, revolutionary or socially-conscious components of their ideology pretty much as soon as they seized power anywhere. They always ended up siding with monarchists, big business, the army, etc. I don't think this was random coincidence.

The novel modernist leftist window-dressing was always weaker than the core traditional/reactionary values they were trying to rescue and enhance through untrammelled state power.

 

[Grisu]

Not so much a peeve as a hilarious thing to point out that I have yet to see an answer to beyond "LOL" and "You're clueless". I'll probably find something else to harp on once somebody makes even a half-hearted effort at rebutting it. Fascism pretty much died out except as an insult, while liberalism stuck around and changed, which is why I consider it legitimate to use the historical definition of one and the current definition of the other, especially since classical liberalism is fairly close to what we now call libertarianism, so it has another name.

Liberalism only changed on the other side of the pond. Around here, liberals certainly don't support nationalization and the like But yeah, that's pretty much beside the point

 

[innonimatu]

Not so much a peeve as a hilarious thing to point out that I have yet to see an answer to beyond "LOL" and "You're clueless". I'll probably find something else to harp on once somebody makes even a half-hearted effort at rebutting it. Fascism pretty much died out except as an insult, while liberalism stuck around and changed, which is why I consider it legitimate to use the historical definition of one and the current definition of the other, especially since classical liberalism is fairly close to what we now call libertarianism, so it has another name.

Actually, KaeptnOvi's answer is quite good. When you claim that fascism is like liberalism, what you're really arguing is that fascism, in a mild form, won. It may now have a different label (liberalism) but its logic is very much an evolution of fascism.
Italian fascism a nationalistic and dictatorial perversion of social-democracy. Take some of the popular features from social-democracy and use it to obtain public support a stable dictatorship, that's what Mussolini did. And in the process, bar the socialists from power (a very real "threat" to existing interests in the 1920s), his real goal with the adoption of some of those social-democratic compromises...
The differences between that fascism and the present one is that governments now:
- pay more lip service to democracy (in the 1920s that word did not yet had the positive associations which made propaganda around it absolutely necessary) and change the faces of those on top (really just went back to an older older strategy of perpetuating power, refined in the 19th century english parliamentary system);
- saw that it was in their best interest (protecting each other, pretending to not be responsible for political choices) to become internationalist, hence the EU and the proliferation of other binding international treaties;
- got better (less obvious) with propaganda, the media pretty much runs itself and pays for itself.

 

[holy king]

fascism is liberalism?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think Erik was arguing that fascists were liberal, not fascism is liberalism.

 

[holy king]

anyway, fascists were not leftist (is this the liberal we're talking about here? the real one would make no sense at all)

nationalization of industry is not per se leftist.

 

[ArneHD]

You're not a fascist, it's just that leftism is the new fascism.

If anyone asks where and when "leftism" ceased to be a political term, and became a random insult thrown at differing ideologies, point them here.

 

[IglooDame]

and being caned for disobeying your husband.

I guess some of us are living in the past, then.

 

[aronnax]

Im still trying to grasp how the Liberal hotspot that is CFC Off Topic managed to significantly pushed someone into self-described Fascism.

Heck I have been moving left and down for years now!

 

[bathsheba666]

Sorry to hear of your recent tribulations.

You may want to get yourself checked out by the local socialised medical service,
in case you have become depressive.

Swings in outlook can often indicate inner turmoil,
and it may be constructive to address any underlying cause,
rather than following a destructive path through life.

Better to express your rage in therapy rather than through politics.

Good luck.

 

[Kerozine]

 

[plarq]

Actually, KaeptnOvi's answer is quite good. When you claim that fascism is like liberalism, what you're really arguing is that fascism, in a mild form, won. It may now have a different label (liberalism) but its logic is very much an evolution of fascism.
Italian fascism a nationalistic and dictatorial perversion of social-democracy. Take some of the popular features from social-democracy and use it to obtain public support a stable dictatorship, that's what Mussolini did. And in the process, bar the socialists from power (a very real "threat" to existing interests in the 1920s), his real goal with the adoption of some of those social-democratic compromises...
The differences between that fascism and the present one is that governments now:
- pay more lip service to democracy (in the 1920s that word did not yet had the positive associations which made propaganda around it absolutely necessary) and change the faces of those on top (really just went back to an older older strategy of perpetuating power, refined in the 19th century english parliamentary system);
- saw that it was in their best interest (protecting each other, pretending to not be responsible for political choices) to become internationalist, hence the EU and the proliferation of other binding international treaties;
- got better (less obvious) with propaganda, the media pretty much runs itself and pays for itself.

Now they named Berlin Wall "Anti-fascist Self-defense Wall" for a reason.

 

[luiz]

Fascists ditched all the remotely progressive, leftist, revolutionary or socially-conscious components of their ideology pretty much as soon as they seized power anywhere. They always ended up siding with monarchists, big business, the army, etc. I don't think this was random coincidence.

The novel modernist leftist window-dressing was always weaker than the core traditional/reactionary values they were trying to rescue and enhance through untrammelled state power.

Fascists still supported nationalizations, plenty of regulation, welfare, etc etc. Economically they were centrist, surely no communists but no (classical) liberals either. Plenty of modern left-wingers are a bit too friendly with big business (at the expense of the taxpayer). Think of Obama bailing out GM (or, more locally, Lula making sure that the state banks give generous and interest-free loans to the mega corporations he likes best - Ie, which bribe him the most).

 

[RedRalph]

Obama isn't left-wing.

 

[Godwynn]

This doesn't mean I have become a goose stepping neo nazi shouting sieg heil from the rooftops before I go to bed.

Oh, you should. We need more recruits to expand the Reich.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Obama isn't left-wing.

This is a true statement.

 

[Dachs]

Fascists ditched all the remotely progressive, leftist, revolutionary or socially-conscious components of their ideology pretty much as soon as they seized power anywhere. They always ended up siding with monarchists, big business, the army, etc. I don't think this was random coincidence.

The novel modernist leftist window-dressing was always weaker than the core traditional/reactionary values they were trying to rescue and enhance through untrammelled state power.

Well, Erik's looking at early Fascism. This was a program drawn up by, sure, a bunch of Arditi, but those guys were outnumbered at the Milan meeting by students, syndicalists, and even Futurists. They were the ones who started the original Fasci di Combattimento as the third way opposing Socialists (who were unpopular for having to admit the failures of the war) and the Popolari (who were unpopular because lol reactionary papacy).

Within eight months the whole idea of a third way caught on so quick that the November 1919 elections had sixteen different 'Fascist' parties putting up candidates with platforms like Mussolini's and d'Annunzio's, which had little to do with the original manifesto. And the failure of the Fascist parties in 1919 meant that the ones who survived would determine what the term meant from then on out; enter the ras local "big man" leaders like Farinacci and Balbo, who took advantage of popular fear of the proposed expanded Socialist platform and ongoing strikes to remake the movement in their own image, and to a lesser extent the image of Mussolini. And then later Mussolini got to mold Fascism into the corporatist, centralized military display show it ended up being best known as.

 

[aelf]

This is gold. As others have suggested, it kinda says something about your intellectual capacity if an internet forum for gamers (in general) is the catalyst for you making a leap to an extremist position. You should perhaps have, you know, considered things better than that. Secondly, I don't know if this is all a joke, but there are tons of baseless and vacuous assertions that you made in the OP, which also says something about your intellectual capacity to begin with (which is in all likelihood a much bigger contributing factor than CFC). So if your project is to satirise the right, congratulations, you succeeded. OTOH, if your project is to make yourself sound like a fool, you succeeded as well.

In other words, cool story, bro.

 

[bigdog5994]

Thunderfalls evil plan is working!!!!

on a brighter note, this is my 20,000th post on CFC !!!



So much time wasted, damn...

wow congrats Winner

 

[Yeekim]

I'll just say something...

The Baltic states even decided to erect war memorials to the dreaded SS.

Never happened.
This story might be behind the rumors.

EDIT:
Also:

1. Not all of the SS were war criminal s and alot of them from the Baltic states weren't actually members of the Nazi party.

It was only possible for Germans to be member of NSDAP, so none of them were.