Challange #3-Lets get cultural

[parachute4u]

Looking at the start, I'd say, get to theology fast and build that chapel
Founding religions in the capital without actually converting for some time could be nice too....

Gotta try that one now...

 

[cabert]

Looking at the start, I'd say, get to theology fast and build that chapel
Founding religions in the capital without actually converting for some time could be nice too....

Gotta try that one now...

starting with fishing and seafood is actually a good way to found religions

 

[mice]

If religions go to the other continent it could be quite limiting. BTW how many religions are people expecting to use. 3 ,4 ,5 ?

My guess is that for Tokugawa with this start, Hinduism is just possible(?), Judaism definitely , but it means a slow start. Or is it prophets to Theology and DR ??

Maybe scouting is the most important thing early on of those good city sites.

Raiser, the first challenge was called 'Land Grab' but it didnt have so much strategic depth. Just trying out the new Immortal and Charismatic trait in Warlords.

 

[patagonia]

I'm back to uni on Monday so I figured I'd better get my attempt in before then.

This was a fun challenge - thanks for setting it up.

Spoiler :

On reflection, with a philosophical or spiritual leader from this position, the amount of culture you could generate would be obscene. As it is, I reckon it's probably possible to break the 80K mark with a bit of refinement... I probably didn't go culture-happy early enough in this attempt.

Basic strategy was to settle in place, go workboat first and work the crabs whilst beelining Polytheism for an early religion. Then Kyoto used its massive food surplus to pump settlers and workers whilst teching up through Monotheism (for a second religion) and Priesthood.

I settled Osaka 1NE of the marble to get that hooked up early on and chopped every forest around that second city to get the pyramids built there. Meanwhile, Kyoto built the Oracle for a Theology slingshot and then got busy with the Parthenon and the Sistine Chapel.

After that, I basically ran a modified hybrid CE/SE, using representation and Sistine Chapel-boosted artist specialists, beelined Music via Literature (for the NE) and then beelined Liberalism to snag Nationalism as my free tech and pick up the free speech civic in the process. I managed to trade along the bottom half of the tech tree with Mansa and Hatty to pick up techs to Banking for Mercantilism and the free artist specialist. Once banking had been traded for, I switched to US and went 100% tax to speed cash-rushing the hermitage and taj mahal in Kyoto, then ramped the slider up to 100% culture for what small benefit it would give me.

Pacifism and the parthenon helped to squeeze out one last GA in 1590, which was a bit of a bonus, and I was fairly lucky with the GP generation as I only ended up with one surplus priest due to oracle contamination. The only hint of war was when Saladin declared sometime between 1200-1300AD, but I managed to bribe Mansa and Hatty into joining in on my side and my small Samurai force took his two closest cities before he sued for peace, so that was never really a threat.

Final figures for Kyoto were 68646 culture, producing 724cpt. I should have broken 70K but wasted a couple of unneccessary turns in anarchy and ended up Jewish, which completely wasted the culture from Hinduism in Kyoto (I changed at Hatty's request at a point when I was feeling rather vulnerable, but that was probably a mistake and cost me an extra turn of anarchy too).

All 7 religions ended up being founded on our continent (I got Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity and Taoism, Mansa got Confucianism, Saladin Buddhism and Hatty Islam. That definitely made relations with Qin and Bismark easier when they showed up as pagans.


1600AD Savegame

 

[parachute4u]

Religious approach didn't go so well. Guess I got carried away by all the free techs GP give

24180 in 1600AD, two great artists only. Work-boat first, after that worker, warrior, stonehenge and oracle (for CoL). After that I generated a GP (for theology), then! founded my 2nd city. I founded 4 religions (in Osaka), built the chapel and the notre dame there, but lost on Parthenon, Pyramids, Music and Liberalism due to the late 2nd city.

Got attacked by little Hatshi 4 turns before I got samurai. I had TWO cities at that time, my military consisted of 2 warriors and 3 chariots at that time. I sort of "won" the war (bribed Mansa to join me), built the great library and took my third city from Mansa (backstabbing him, after I made peace with Hatshi ) Taking the third city from him was for building 4 different temples in 3 cities to be able to build 4 +50% buildings. I managed to finish ONE cathedral before time ran out ...

Guess I'll have to try again, focussing on Philosophy and Music exclusively....

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As usual, I decided to try this as a one city challenge. Wow, what a pain in the neck. I tried a couple of ideas - what I found most amusing is that the final score really doesn't change very much (the difference between best and worst was about 1600 culture plus one extra Great Work).

Spoiler :

On a one city challenge, you can forget about all the culture multipliers. It's going to be a drag race.

The main line is the race through Polytheism to Code of Laws (scoring both religions, but not converting), then cross over to Drama, Music, and Literature. I was getting "lucky" with a Mysticism pop, shaving a couple turns off that research.

Along the way, I busted out a bunch of chariots as fog busters, and get the Parthenon built for the help? scoring Artist points. I'm not actually certain that's a winning move - it's a lot of time spent generating hammers without a boost (I tried scoring the marble with an artist pop, and using that to boost the Parthenon, but never could get everything timed safely).

Monarchy looks to be an important tech along the way - my best score combined Hereditary Rule and Caste system. Even though the AI beat me to Alphabet, I managed to score the important extra Artist.

I tried an early Academy in one variation, but that was an error. Better to get a temple built, and us the CS sling shot - this calls for cottaging everything, and holding off the artists until relatively late, but you end up with nice cottages and probably win the race to Music.

FYI: my good games never used Slavery.

Best score thus far: 46368.

 

[cabert]

good run patagonia!
i think it's beatable, but not easily

 

[Lynxx]

Great score you got there patagonia! Culture is not my thing so it will be hard for me to get up that high. The strategy sounded somewhat similair to what I had planned to try, but i didnt want to read what you wrote to carefully to spoil my own fun . My weekend is going to be buisy so I dont expect to finish a game till tuesday. Hope to see many more submited games till then!

 

[parachute4u]

I tried to maximise great people output in my 2nd try and ended with legendary (50K) culture in 1590. Obviously not enough to beat patagonia's great score, but well double the culture I got in my first attempt.

I built the oracle, Pathenon and the Sistine Chapel in the capital and founded 2 religions (hinduism and Judaism) there.

In the beginning I picked CoL as my free tech from the oracle, built a temple in the capital and generated a great prophet for theology (for something to trade and the sisitine chapel) and founded a 2nd city to build military and a library (for a great scientist and philosophy (=pacifism)). After founding taoism I researched literature (for national epic), traded for mathematics and researched music for the extra great artist. Got beat to liberalism by Hatshepsut by 2 turns and stopped research there.

I founded 3 additional cities, who build military during the whole game (nearly) I was quite concerned, because I adopted Hinduism, when Pacifism was available and everybody on my continent was buddhist.

In the end I generated about 120 GP-points per turn, so I got a great artist every 10 turns (2 in the 16th century!). Not having the hermitage hurt a bit though.

Heres the save:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/39198/Challange_3-culture_AD-1600.Civ4SavedGame

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edit
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I gave it another try
This time only founding Hinduism in the capital, building a warrior, worker and 2 settlers then.
My aim was to produce as many great artists as possible, so I wanted to get into pacifism quickly, get the music great artist and to get to liberalism first for nationalism. The Hermitage obviously is a key building in this challenge, so I tried to shorten the time to liberlaism by founding two cities ASAP, one for the GS-library(philosophy), the other one for cottages (and rice)this time. Later I founded a third city, near the iron, just in case that I need military.
Everything went well, I scored the Oracle, the Parthenon, the chapel (in the capital) AND the Hanging Gardens (in my 2nd city) and built cottages everywhere (except the capital) to be able to get to liberalism (nationalism) quickly. I traded my marble and horses for more health resources and made it to liberalism first, picking Nationalism as my free tech and chopping my first forest next to the capital, but only one to keep my +1 health bonus from the remaining two forests. I completed the Hermitage around 1150 I think, researched drama and stopped research there.
The capital build health buildings (not monasteries ) and was working only food tiles if possible most of the game. No Notre Dame, no Taj Mahal there... -- Building a grocer there, probably was a mistake, cause it gave me +2 health for 15-20 turns, but I wasted 8 turns building it...

Biggest pop Kyoto ever had, was 21, but unfortunately I had to starve the city down to 19 to get the last great artist out in 1600 AD giving me 75545 culture with his last great work

The save : http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/39198/Challange_3-culture_AD-1600-2.Civ4SavedGame

 

[Raiser]

Congrats parachute4u for breaking the 75k barrier. A daunting target.

Ok, now I have dispensed with the Real Life responsibilities I shall take a crack at this, in a "standing on the shoulders of giants" way.

Being a warmonger I've never built a single legendary culture city before. So it's all virgin territory to me. I have a feeling that I'm going to gain new respect for those masochists that go for the triple legendary-city culture victories.

 

[mice]

Nice result parachute4u, but I'm surprised, no cathedrals??
I thought these were the kicker.

 

[cabert]

Nice result parachute4u, but I'm surprised, no cathedrals??
I thought these were the kicker.

well, cathedrals are the kicker if you have them early enough

 

[parachute4u]

I tried cathedrals in other attempts. Cathedrals need missionaries (which need monasteries first OR organized religion (= no pacifism) and cathedrals need temples and resources (stone and copper and the like)

In this one, the capital did not build anything except wonders and health buildings. (edit: I only build one temple too, which was very hard, btw ) It is entirely possible, that you can score more culture building monasteries and cathedrals, but I tried to maximise culture from great artists in this attempt. Cathedrals were too expensive for me. I preferred not to work the mines, whenever possible.

 

[patagonia]

Nice result there parachute4u. Breaking 75K is really good going.

The two keys to this seem to be generating as many GA as possible and getting to Liberalism/Nationalism as quickly as possible. Both Free Speech and the Hermitage are effectively two cathedrals, one of which costs you one turn (anarchy) and the other of which can be built double speed with the marble on hand (as can the Hindu Mandir a bit earlier on if I remember correctly).

Free Speech floodplain towns would allow you to kick out more cpt towards the end than artist specialists (with or without the sistine chapel), but you'd probably have to sacrifice a GA or two to run them (in the absence of an equally food-rich site to use as a GA farm). I'd be interested to see how that approach compares if anyone's tried it. My feeling is that with a slightly later end-date, it'd probably be stronger overall, but may just lose out with a 1600AD finish.

 

[williamh2]

I honestly am blown away that you can all get to Liberalism... that is truly the difference between about a 50K score and the monster numbers you've been posting.

I really don't know how you do it... I'm trying to pump out science as much as I can tell is possible, and I'm falling short (someone always beats me). to read that someone had the Hermitage COMPLETED by 1150 is just absolutely nuts... Either you're far more successful at trading for the cheaper pre-reqs - or I am a complete hack...

Anyhow - I feel pretty good about 53K I'm a new-poster but really enjoyed the challenge and everyone's thoughts, etc.. so continued luck to everyone...

 

[mice]

Anyhow - I feel pretty good about 53K I'm a new-poster

Welcome to CFC

 

[Raiser]

Hi williamh2 and congrats on the 53k .

Yeah, it's a fine balance. I pushed out 3 early settlers for cottage growth and neglected my first great artist, going for an academy instead. So I got Liberalism and The Hermitage by 1260AD. Unfortunately my final culture score doesn't look like it's going to beat the 75k.

I missed some early wonders going for religion and the +50%'s from the Catherdrals. My control of religion has helped me keep the peace and my dominance in the tech trade has got me about 300 score ahead of the AI nations with a 24 pop capital. Which is all very well and good, but I think I've taken too long getting my three Cathedrals out. So my +350% of a lowish base culture is looking like a mistake. Not enough GA culture bombs. Grrrrr.

Going to sleep now it's 2.30am (just... one... more... turn.) I'll finish up tomorrow, and post my save and final score then.


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[parachute4u]

Fastest route to liberalism is (or should be, cause I am not an expert/don't do this normally):

Oracle (with writing) -> CoL
Great Prophet (from oracle) (with monotheism and CoL) -> Theology
Great Scientist (with CoL) -> Philosophy
Paper (research)
Education (research)
Liberalism (research)

There's a great post about what techs the great people will give you here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

You need writing to get Code of Law from the Oracle. Writing lets you build a library too. The library can give you a great scientistvery fast if you have enough food to run 2 scientist specialists. You are going to need philosophy anyway in order to be able to research education, so it's not a waste of GP-points.

You need civil service for nationalism. Not sure if I got it from a prophet or traded for it. Probably from an excess prophet

 

[patagonia]

Fastest route to liberalism is (or should be, cause I am not an expert/don't do this normally):

Oracle (with writing) -> CoL
Great Prophet (from oracle) (with monotheism and CoL) -> Theology
Great Scientist (with CoL) -> Philosophy
Paper (research)
Education (research)
Liberalism (research)

There's a great post about what techs the great people will give you here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952

You need writing to get Code of Law from the Oracle. Writing lets you build a library too. The library can give you a great scientistvery fast if you have enough food to run 2 scientist specialists. You are going to need philosophy anyway in order to be able to research education, so it's not a waste of GP-points.

You need civil service for nationalism. Not sure if I got it from a prophet or traded for it. Probably from an excess prophet

That looks about right.

If you're willing to pop and lightbulb another scientist, you can get about 60-70% of Education researched for "free" too, getting you to Liberalism that much faster. However, in the context of this challenge that's 4000 culture gone that could have been put to good use, so you'd have to weigh up whether it was worth it or not.

The research path I used was a bit slower - I took Theology from the Oracle and researched everything else manually, taking a detour to Music along the way for the free artist (I think I researched up to Machinery myself too (maybe with a trade or two thrown in), to ensure Samurai were available nice and early).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Fastest route to liberalism is (or should be, cause I am not an expert/don't do this normally):

Oracle (with writing) -> CoL
Great Prophet (from oracle) (with monotheism and CoL) -> Theology
Great Scientist (with CoL) -> Philosophy
Paper (research)
Education (research)
Liberalism (research)

That looks weird. I would expect to want to use the GP for Civil Service, rather than Theology, if the goal is to land liberalism quickly (and after that climb the tree for masonry if you are keen on OrgRel and Theology).