change beastmasters

daladinn

Prince
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
435
this is a petition to change beastmasters...

now taht we have affinity based on the number of mana nodes of a given type would it be possible to give beastmasters an animal affinity so that they gain a bonus based on teh number of different animals you have in cages and such?
 
this is a petition to change beastmasters...

now taht we have affinity based on the number of mana nodes of a given type would it be possible to give beastmasters an animal affinity so that they gain a bonus based on teh number of different animals you have in cages and such?

I dont really like that idea. But I agree that they need something special, they are kinda a bland t4 unit. We also need something special for Flurry's and Shield Walls. Let me know if you guys have any ideas.
 
Beastmasters could be made to have a special ability to prevent animals from attacking a stack, though this is assuming that there'll still be animals about when you reach T4.

Shieldwalls could be made to be a tank, deadly on non-city combat, but piss poor defensive capabilities (it takes time to form up a wall).

Flurry could be made to give collateral damage, but more so when defending (sorta like a reverse berserker). Obviously something has to be done to prevent tag-teaming, maybe make 'em both susceptible to cavalry?

EDIT: when I think about it, who would be stupid enough to send his whole stack knocking on a Flurry's doorstep? So, make the Flurry's give collateral only on open terrain, i.e. non cities. Berserkers give collateral damage only in cities.
 
Beastmasters could be made to have a special ability to prevent animals from attacking a stack, though this is assuming that there'll still be animals about when you reach T4.
With a +100% vs animals, they will surely be the defender anyways, and will surely win at that point.
Shieldwalls could be made to be a tank, deadly on non-city combat, but piss poor defensive capabilities (it takes time to form up a wall).
That's really Berserker territory there. Shield walls are made for defense.
 
Beastmaster change proposal:

Strength: 6 (nature affinity: 1)

Cargo: 2 (birds only)

Cargo: 1 (2 @ level 10, 3 @ level 20 (max); bear, spider, gorilla, lion, panther, tiger or wolf only)

Animals "carried" as cargo add 100% of their base strength to beastmaster.


A civ with 2 nature nodes would have a beastmaster with a base 8 strength. Carrying 2 bears, the same beastmaster would have a base 16 strength.

Maybe it would be easier to just give the unit 2 cargo spaces for animals. But the basic idea is the same (actually, borrowed straight out of the civilopedia): that the strength of the beastmaster is tied to his animal companions.
I don't know why I added the nature affinity; feel free to ignore it.
 
Hmm... a Shield Wall sounds like something that would mainly defend other units. Perhaps one or a few of the below:
- All other units in the stack gain +1 stone skins (as per the spell, i.e. ignore one hit) per shield wall in the stack, though only for defensive combat. (Balanced due to the limit of three shield walls per civ.)
- All other units in the stack gain immunity to first strikes, again only for defensive combat.
- Other units sharing a stack with a Shield Wall gain resistance to collateral damage - the Shield Wall, however, is extra vulnerable to it. (They spread out to help protect all the other units.) A shield wall with Magic Resistance could perhaps gain access to a similar stack-defense promotion against magic spells.
- Slap the 'Heavy Fortification' ability I suggested elsewhere on them, doubling their dig-in defense bonus.


Flurries, now, are a bit harder... a defensive collateral damage would make sense, as does a large number of first strikes... I'll put a first strike idea here, instead! Let units with first strikes apply them whenever either side withdraws, as well as at the start of combat - i.e. a flurry with 5 first strikes faces a horseman. Flurry gets five first strike, regular combat takes place, horseman withdraws. Flurry now gains five more first strikes before combat really ends.

Beastmasters, finally... letting them work with captured animals to raise more could work: Say, capture a bear, sacrifice it with a beastmaster spell to build a bear den that keeps producing friendly bears over time. Letting them gain abilities from animals could be interesting, too: Join with a panther for stealth, join with a bear for +2 strength, join with a wolf for a forest movement bonus, an elephant for collateral damage, and so on.
 
would be nice if you gave them the ability to shape shift or summon hidden nationality animals
 
Beastmasters, Letting them gain abilities from animals could be interesting, too: Join with a panther for stealth, join with a bear for +2 strength, join with a wolf for a forest movement bonus, an elephant for collateral damage, and so on.

That idea I Really like.
 
I also like the idea of beastmasters taking a pet to do something with. I also think it would be neat if they could randomly spawn animals (1-4% likelihood/turn) based on the terrain that they were in (high in jungle, 0 in city) and get appropriate types of animals.

Shieldwalls I think would work very well with the guardsman promotion. I don't know if they currently have it or not, but it would make the stack they were with extra safe.
 
Sorry, with regards to history, you may be right. (I didn't have time for a more precise reply). In terms of gameplay, the shield wall is designed to defend stacks at the moment. Making them weak on defense would be entirely reversing their current function, a bigger change I think than Kael was looking for.

But then again, both shield walls and Spartiatoi are probably based on the same unit, just differnt interpretations/roles.
 
Hmmm, defense, defense...

How about making the Shieldwall a walking fortress that takes a turn to deploy and gains a defensive bonus for doing so? Or maybe I'm just taking it's name too seriously...
 
I guess I'm reading too much historical fiction, specifically Pressfield's Gates of Fire, not to mention 300. The way the Greek phalanx works...you'd never think that shield walls are for defense.
Actually, in 300 the Persians are invading Greece, and the 300 Spartans are defending in the mountain pass. But then the question is, what's the difference between Spartiatori/Phalanxes, and Shield Walls?

What if Shield Walls had overall weaker strength but added their defensive strength to other units in the stack? Maybe they could have "support promotions" that would give other units in the stack, ie, immune to first strikes, reduced collateral damage, etc.
 
Brainstorm!

Flurry-
Spoiler :

Relentless assault/doublestrike-​
"everytime this unit wins a combat round, it gets a free first strike"
(double strike?)
-they shouldn't get a city defense bonus if so
-for even more power(though way way too powerful) make it continue everytime the flurry hits, flurries would have to be the same strength as longbowmen/crossbowmen as balance.

it will make flurries nearly immune to swarming, low level units will be almost unable to touch them, equivalent units would commit significant risk in fighting flurries (severely hurt or destroyed)

Beastmaster?-
Spoiler :

-banding with animals
for each animal banded with the beastmaster, his base strength is increased like with great commanders, except animals will add thier normal strength, as well as promotions.(if you remove the animals, they don't keep thier promotions)

or you could do it this way except just for strength, using cargo.

Shield Walls-(multiple ideas)
Spoiler :
  1. Reinforcement
    if the shield wall loses over half its health in a battle, another shield wall or guardsmen unit will interrupt the combat.

  2. Discipline
    Damage to the unit within a battle is capped at x amount(15%?) per hit(the enemy would have to hit the unit 7 times to win)

  3. Resilience
    At the end of combat, if this unit was originally over 1/2 health, it's set to 2/3 it's original health, the attacking unit withdraws and the shield wall is not destroyed.

  4. Strategy
    This unit gets a bonus vs units without Drill 2 or Strategy(i would have put formation but that promotion is already used)

  5. causes units to withdraw from it somehow when defending(push)
    if attacking, the defending unit can be pushed out of it's tile occasionally(shove)
 
The Spartans were defending the pass, yes, but they were doing it offensively (i.e. they didn't stand around waiting for the Persians to charge), just making sure that they didn't stray too far from the pass. Offense and defense on a tactical level is different from offense and defense on a strategic level.

Maybe they could have "support promotions" that would give other units in the stack, ie, immune to first strikes, reduced collateral damage, etc.

I believe Total Realism or Sevomod had this feature. Though maybe we should give the bonii to the Shieldwall, instead of the members of the stack.
 
The Spartans were defending the pass, yes, but they were doing it offensively (i.e. they didn't stand around waiting for the Persians to charge), just making sure that they didn't stray too far from the pass. Offense and defense on a tactical level is different from offense and defense on a strategic level.
Exactly. The Persian army was trying to advance into the mountain pass, and while the Spartans did (at time) "push forward," they ultimately were defending their position. In Civ4, which one of those is represented by attacking and which by defending? ...But let's face it, 300 is not a historical source on ancient warfare. :lol:

Relentless assault/doublestrike-

"everytime this unit wins a combat round, it gets a free first strike"
(double strike?)
-they shouldn't get a city defense bonus if so
-for even more power(though way way too powerful) make it continue everytime the flurry hits, flurries would have to be the same strength as longbowmen/crossbowmen as balance.

it will make flurries nearly immune to swarming, low level units will be almost unable to touch them, equivalent units would commit significant risk in fighting flurries (severely hurt or destroyed)
I like this idea's flavor, but is it significantly different from first strikes?
 
maybe beastmasters could get an spell called "animal rage" or something, that gives it extra movement, withdrawl rate and attack strength. it would lose some of its defence strength. after one turn the beast master has a high chance of becoming barbarian and hidden nationality. if this happens, a few turns must pass before you regain control of the beastmaster and he reverts to normal strength
 
...But let's face it, 300 is not a historical source on ancient warfare.

Meh, I was working off from Gates of Fire, not 300 (honestly, were those Spartans trying kill the Persians through the 'awesomeness' of their bodies?)
 
Exactly. The Persian army was trying to advance into the mountain pass, and while the Spartans did (at time) "push forward," they ultimately were defending their position. In Civ4, which one of those is represented by attacking and which by defending? ...But let's face it, 300 is not a historical source on ancient warfare. :lol:


I like this idea's flavor, but is it significantly different from first strikes?

it gives you free "strikes", in essence-it's not that diffrent, but will synergize nicely with first strikes and blitz,(and be insanely powerful as such, just as much as the other final non-avatar units properly promoted)

the only reason such powerful new promotions could/can coe-exist is unit specialization...
 
You have to be careful with too many first strikes. Too many and a unit will be way overpowered.
 
Back
Top Bottom