Changes to Elimination Games

[TahamiTsunami]

In the latest Never Before Seen Civs - Elimination Thread, there's been some comments about how perhaps there should be some changes to some of the rules of future Elimination Game threads and I figured that its about time to discuss that more.

One of the discussed changes is changing it so that positive and negative votes are equal. As @Amrunril said, "I wonder if it would be possible to do these threads in such a way that upvotes and downvotes were of equal value, but scores automatically ticked down over time. If calibrated right, such a system could be equally capable of forcing eliminations as the thread progresses without being weighted so heavily against options that attract strong feelings in both directions." @EdmundIronside suggested that all civs could lose 1 point every 24 hours. I for one think that would be a change worth trying out to see if the positive or negative points will hold more sway over time. Obviously this wouldn't be just for new civs but could definitely be applied to threads on say leaders, themes, etc.

Additionally, I also agree with @Leucarum that it would be more interesting to do future elimination games of civs to start by each region/continent/etc. since there were quite a few votes based on regions that they'd want expanded as opposed to that specific civ being the one they wanted (for example, like a person voting for Ashanti mainly for more Western Africa representation even though they would've preferred Benin, Dahomey, etc.). That way, there could be games for finding, say, the top 5 out of 20 European civs, African civs, etc. before putting the winners in a final round against each other. There's also the question of how many regions or continents could be done. We could stick to the 6 continents or perhaps some regions such as the Middle East, Mesoamerica, Southeast Asia, etc. could be expanded upon since those regions in particular would offer plenty more choices. What do you guys think?

Also, in my opinion, I believe that the returning civs and brand new civs should probably stay separated for those 'which civs from which areas would you like to see in Civ 6' threads. Not that it would be the end of the world for me if they were in, but I think it would be obvious that the returning options like Ethiopia, Maya, Siam, etc. would certainly be in the top spots if not the #1 spot of their respective threads.

Something else that has been brought up by @Morningcalm is a way to invite more people to join in so that's not just a few people in the games. Perhaps there could be a 'starting soon' thread to get people hyped up for a game that could be a week in the future and discuss which choices should be in. The more suggestions here for this the better.

Let me know what you guys think!

 

[Leucarum]

The issues I can see with the automatic countdown idea are that it would be a lot of book keeping for the person who 'ticks' it down, it would probably result in a lot of ties and we would probably go a long time without eliminations and then have loads at once.

I think I fall into the 'if it ain't broke...' category - maybe it would be better to just tweak the rules around repeat downvotes? Repeat targetting of civs appears to be the main thing that annoys people. But I'm as guilty as the next person of sometimes downvoting the same thing twice in a row.

You could try a rule where the second time you downvote something in a row you subtract -2, the third or beyond only -1. It resets back to -3 as soon as you downvote something else? Maybe suspend the rule when you get to 5 civs?

Or is this just fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing? I'm a big fan of the elimination threads. They do work as is...

And if you were asking about 'preferred new civ' threads the problem with my suggestion would be an overproliferation of elimination threads.

 

[Edmund Ironside]

The advantage of the system I and some other proposed (equal points, and automatic point reductions) would be it would help avoid situations where one option which no one really care for lasts longer than a second option which say 5 people like and 3 people dislike. The current system punishes the polarizing options and rewards the ambivalent options.
The disadvantage as touched on above, is that it would require a thread organizer to be very engaged throughout the game/discussion. They would need to update the scores very regularly at a similar time daily.

I'm not sure I agree with @Leucarum about "we would probably go a long time without eliminations and then have loads at once." The popular options will still go up, and the unpopular ones will still drop down. Also elimination threads often have long gaps before the first few eliminations happen. However I guess the only way to know how it would work out would be to try one some time.

Touching on @Leucarum suggestions regarding repeat downvoting, a rule could be that you can't downvote the same option two rounds in a row.

Has there been an elimination thread yet for possible new/alternative leaders for Civ 6?

 

[Leucarum]

The advantage of the system I and some other proposed (equal points, and automatic point reductions) would be it would help avoid situations where one option which no one really care for lasts longer than a second option which say 5 people like and 3 people dislike.

Point taken. That situation does happen a lot! Sorry if I took the suggestions too negatively. As long as the forum gods will it, why not do an experimental trial? I have my expectations for how it would work out but could always be wrong...

Touching on @Leucarum suggestions regarding repeat downvoting, a rule could be that you can't downvote the same option two rounds in a row.

Compared to mine yours also has the virtue of simplicity.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Or is this just fixing a problem that doesn't need fixing? I'm a big fan of the elimination threads. They do work as is...

To be clear, I'm not saying that the current rules for the elimination rules are awful. Its just seems to me and at least a few of the other people who've commented in the previous game that perhaps some things could be tweaked or changed to combat the slight issues that have been noticed. I'm certainly not going to be enraged if the rules stay the same but seeing what changes can be reasonably made should be worth exploring or at least discussing.

maybe it would be better to just tweak the rules around repeat downvotes

I'm starting to agree. Now that you both got me thinking about the trickling down points, it doesn't seem really feasible from what I can tell. I have no clue if there would be a way on these forums to have that done automatically but I doubt it since that sounds like a fairly fancy bit of tech to me. Someone 'could' do it at the same time every day but that would be quite a commitment for however long the game and other future games might last. Either 'your downvote for the same choice lowers from 3 to 2 then 2 to 1 and finally until you change your downvote' or 'you can't downvote the same option twice' seems like the most reasonable options to me.

These do sound good on paper but I definitely agree that an experimental trial would be worth doing to see how things go in an actual game.

Has there been an elimination thread yet for possible new/alternative leaders for Civ 6?

I think earlier in the year or late last year there was one for alt civ 6 leaders. I recall that there was a poll but not a game for civ 7 leaders a few months ago.

I've still been thinking about ways to get more people to play the games so it isn't just a handful of the same players. Beyond a hype post or thread I can't think of much else except for an incentive like some sort of prize but maybe that's a bit much.

 

[Amrunril]

I still like the idea of equally weighted upvotes and downvotes, provided the logistics for an automatic "tickdown" could be worked out. Perhaps the OP could be responsible, or perhaps it could simply be done by the first poster after a some specified time. Limitations on consecutive downvotes might actually be harder to manage, as there would be a chance of confusion/error with every vote rather than only once a day.

I don't have strong feelings about how to break down threads geographically and by new/old status. Probably, there's some value in varying the organization from past rounds, in the hope that it will prompt slightly different discussions (old and new civs lumped together within regions might actually be a good way of doing this).