Check Your Privilege

[classical_hero]

Well, the pedophilia is happening for many reasons, but it's continuing to happen because the church was and probably still is in the habit of sweeping allegations under the carpet, instead of going after priests who are sexual predators. Nope, they just move them around to another parish and "problem solved".

The church allows it to happen, and so it happens.

But similar things happened in n places run by state agencies also. It seems to be a problem from that are where we allowed the wrong people to have access to children. While the situation was bad the good thing was that there was only a few bad apples committing these crimes, but unfortunately those in authority most probably wanted to just keep the situation quiet rather than scar their place with bad name. The irony is that it did the exact opposite of what they had hoped.

 

[Kyriakos]

Maybe we should consider that some of those rapes may have been done not by the pedo priests, but by a god or summoned demon. Afterall cis-jewish religion maintains that a person can be born without any human having sex with the future mother. Warrants looking into before we throw accusations around.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

So here's my question: Should I NOT accept such a label that may be consigned to me by theists? That there maybe is a God, and if there is, because I am not a "believer" I am probably somehow "less good" or whatever than a believer? Should I instead be "standing up for myself" and be actively trashing the religious views of my "oppressors"?

Thoughts?

If there is a God then you are integral part of its existence just like anything else. Tree cant believe in God yet its perfectly fine as it is. Some people cant belive in God for whatever reasons and tahts fine too. Most of so-called believers faith is just a rope of sand -- again thats just the way it is.

Faith in general as a psychological phenomenon is important and necessary at present state of human development but having little more of it in particular way or other doesnt give anyone right to judge others.

On being possed. We are all possesed one way or the other. There is no one who can claim full control over his body, mind (and soul) so we are not in full possesion of ourselves....

 

[Manfred Belheim]

When you are the one who has to go through the ordeal of an abortion, then you can be the one who decides whether access is "too bad" or not.

Well given that you presumably haven't had to go through one either then that puts us at a stalemate surely?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Some states, like Texas, have only a couple abortion clinics in the entire state, with each being responsible for providing health services to millions of women.

Apparently there are around 1 million abortions in the US every year. Assuming they're spread evenly across the whole population then that would mean only around 86,000 happen in Texas annually, not millions. If the clinics were open every day a year then that means they would have to be able to handle just over 100 procedures a day.

I'm not downplaying that number as it is still quite large, but the relevant question would be how big are these clinics and are they capable of providing that level of service? If so, aside from the travel distance/time, what's the problem? Sure "only 2 clinics to serve millions of women" sounds good as an emotive soundbite, but it doesn't in itself mean anything. I'm not saying that this ISN'T necessarily woefully inadequate coverage, just that there's not enough information in what you said to judge either way.

I mean, where I live we "only" have two hospitals to serve half a million people, and these have to be able to supply EVERY medical procedure going, not just one. That sounds almost as bad as your figure, but it's meaningless until you consider how many of those half a million people actually need those services on a day to day basis, and what capacity the hospitals have to spare.

 

[warpus]

But similar things happened in n places run by state agencies also.

It's happened elsewhere (the molestation of children), but what hasn't happened elsewhere is a sweeping under the rug of it happening for decades by the organization's leadership, the failure to get police involved, the protection of pedophiles by the organization's leadership, etc.

Aside from the UK, it seems that the upper echelons of that society seem to all be kiddie diddlers for some reason too.

Apparently there are around 1 million abortions in the US every year. Assuming they're spread evenly across the whole population then that would mean only around 86,000 happen in Texas annually, not millions. If the clinics were open every day a year then that means they would have to be able to handle just over 100 procedures a day.

These sorts of clinics usually do a lot more than just perform abortions.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You missed the point. Snipping a partial sentence will do that. It isn't "not believing in something that has no evidence" It is their belief that atheism means they are smart for which there is no evidence...but which they wholeheartedly believe.

Depends what you mean by "smart". If, in this case, it means rational and non-credulous then I think there is ample evidence for that in the form of very poor evidence for any other position.

 

[Farm Boy]

Aside from the UK, it seems that the upper echelons of that society seem to all be kiddie diddlers for some reason too.

The prevalence of sexual predators in the priesthood seems to be roughly the same rate as in the general population from what I remember. It's the access to children and position of trust that throw it into such a nasty situation. Like teachers, or cops, or parents, or uncles. Coverups happen at about the same rate too. Here's really the crux of the issue that differentiates it. It's hard to get mad at monolithic "pedo uncles." They're just a thing that's very bad. Same with teachers, or cops. But where the Catholic Church distinguishes itself is that it provides, intentionally, a monolithic and relatively unified front that serves as a focus of praise, worship, anger, rage, et all.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Depends what you mean by "smart". If, in this case, it means rational and non-credulous then I think there is ample evidence for that in the form of very poor evidence for any other position.

Actually, it depends on what they mean by smart, since it is their unsupportable belief.

 

[warpus]

Coverups happen at about the same rate too.

I really doubt it, but would love to see some stats that prove you right and me wrong.

I say I really doubt it because the church was covering everything up, not getting the police involved in any of the cases, moving perpetrators around so that they wouldn't be caught, and basically empowering those priests who were molesting. The only other case of such a level of coverup I've ever heard of was what's happening in Britain and the elite echelons of British society, or whatever.

 

[Flying Pig]

The prevalence of sexual predators in the priesthood seems to be roughly the same rate as in the general population from what I remember. It's the access to children and position of trust that throw it into such a nasty situation. Like teachers, or cops, or parents, or uncles. Coverups happen at about the same rate too. Here's really the crux of the issue that differentiates it. It's hard to get mad at monolithic "pedo uncles." They're just a thing that's very bad. Same with teachers, or cops. But where the Catholic Church distinguishes itself is that it provides, intentionally, a monolithic and relatively unified front that serves as a focus of praise, worship, anger, rage, et all.

Also, as has been pointed out, priests claim moral and spiritual authority over their parishioners - particularly in the Catholic church, where they hear confessions and prescribe penances.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

These sorts of clinics usually do a lot more than just perform abortions.

No doubt they do, but still the relevant equation is to balance their capacity against the demand they need to satisfy. Not just to say how many institutions there are per capita.

 

[Farm Boy]

I really doubt it, but would love to see some stats that prove you right and me wrong.

I say I really doubt it because the church was covering everything up, not getting the police involved in any of the cases, moving perpetrators around so that they wouldn't be caught, and basically empowering those priests who were molesting. The only other case of such a level of coverup I've ever heard of was what's happening in Britain and the elite echelons of British society, or whatever.

We hear it all the time with the prevalence of underreporting, particularly familial, molestation. It's just that we don't call hiding the molester uncle/dad/isolated incidents that are everywhere a coverup, we call it underreporting. Call me jaded. A new murder having been glossed over by the Chicago PD seems to be surfacing about every to every other week around here, so perhaps my faith in the betterness of non-Catholics at being decent human beings is a bit tenuous at best.

 

[warpus]

We hear it all the time with the prevalence of underreporting, particularly familial, molestation. It's just that we don't call hiding the molester uncle/dad/isolated incidents that are everywhere a coverup, we call it underreporting. .

The difference of course is that you are referencing individual & unrelated cases, whereas I am talking about the leadership of a global organization with billions of members, systematically covering up every single instance of this happening, and even helping out perpetrators so that they don't get caught.

It's like trying to compare a random fistfight on NYE to the Iraq invasion, or something similar.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Actually, it depends on what they mean by smart, since it is their unsupportable belief.

Well I assumed you were categorising a general sentiment, rather than directly quoting someone else. In which case "smart" would have been your choice of words, not theirs.

 

[Farm Boy]

The difference of course is that you are referencing individual & unrelated cases, whereas I am talking about the leadership of a global organization with billions of members, systematically covering up every single instance of this happening, and even helping out perpetrators so that they don't get caught.

It's like trying to compare a random fistfight on NYE to the Iraq invasion, or something similar.

Correct. They've given you a monolithic and centralized entity to focus on. Yet their actual rates of offense and sweeping it under the rug appear to be fairly standard. They're just big. It's much easier to be furious about big than scattered. Example: The harm done in Columbine is much louder than the harm done to Dantrell Davis, Ryan Harris, or Eric Morse. Do children get murdered in Colorado at higher rates than they do in Chicago?

 

[warpus]

I don't think you understand what I am getting at. It's not the rates that are the problem, really, but rather that a global organization, representing literally billions, is enabling child molesters, and has for decades in the past, and who knows how long before that.

That the rates overall might be comparable to "the norm" is beside the point - the point is that church leadership has been enabling this for quite a while. Like, actively helping these people by moving them around and making sure they don't get caught.

One child getting sexually molested by their uncle is an entirely different story. If that uncle belonged to let's say the U.S. federal government, an organization representing 350 million (or whatever), and that organization was enabling him and helping him out, moving him from state to state so that he can continue molesting without getting caught or arrested.. Do you see how that would be a much much bigger problem and cause for worry? ANd in this case it is an organization literally representing billions, and not "just" 350 million.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well given that you presumably haven't had to go through one either then that puts us at a stalemate surely?

The difference is, I listen to the people who have. You don't.

Apparently there are around 1 million abortions in the US every year. Assuming they're spread evenly across the whole population then that would mean only around 86,000 happen in Texas annually, not millions. If the clinics were open every day a year then that means they would have to be able to handle just over 100 procedures a day.

First, that's how many actually happen, not how many could potentially happen if women had all the access required.

Second, they aren't spread evenly across all states, as population is not distributed in this way.

Third, there are over 12 million women in Texas. Can you tell me which ones will need an abortion in a given year? Of course not. Medical services need to be available to everyone who might need them. With 2 abortion clinics in Texas remaining, that leaves each one responsible for providing abortion services to 6 million women. That doesn't mean that all 6 million will use the service, but that the service provider is responsible for meeting the needs of those 6 million women.

Fourth, even if there was enough staff and services physically capable of handling the demand, proximity is another huge factor. You wouldn't say that a single colossal hospital complex in Kansas, capable of handling 300 million patients, was adequately covering the entire United States for its health care needs, would you?

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't think you understand what I am getting at. It's not the rates that are the problem, really, but rather that a global organization, representing literally billions, is enabling child molesters, and has for decades in the past, and who knows how long before that.

That the rates overall might be comparable to "the norm" is beside the point - the point is that church leadership has been enabling this for quite a while. Like, actively helping these people by moving them around and making sure they don't get caught.

One child getting sexually molested by their uncle is an entirely different story. If that uncle belonged to let's say the U.S. federal government, an organization representing 350 million (or whatever), and that organization was enabling him and helping him out, moving him from state to state so that he can continue molesting without getting caught or arrested.. Do you see how that would be a much much bigger problem and cause for worry? ANd in this case it is an organization literally representing billions, and not "just" 350 million.

I think the reality of the monolith is probably closer to uncles in how cohesive it is rather than what the dogma preaches, but yes, institutional problems need targeting. And there at least were, and probably ever will be, problems. What I don't think is that rapey priests do more harm to this society than do rapey uncles. I think the latter is a much, much bigger problem. It's just so much more difficult to deal with it's not the low hanging fruit. You get more bang for your buck going after the Catholics since they present a differently structured target to fix. They're more promising in their ability to "do better" than we are as a whole.

 

[warpus]

Again, I think you are missing my point, the problem is not so much the priests, as it is the church leadership enabling them and helping those priests out who do sexually molest kids.

The uncles you speak of have no higher authority to turn to, to protect them. Priests do.