China backs up Iran

[G-Man]

I didn't say anything about you being wrong. What you said is your own belief, so believe it.

The next war won't be like the last two. No sir. Why should it be? The old ways take to long for half a million man and women to die. This time the killing machine will be much quicker. You don't think the US and so many other countries spent all that money on weapons and don't plan to use them when given the opportunity. Just look at history. After America created it's death ray how long did they wait to use it? Not long at all.

The next war won't last years. No way. 6 months tops. And in those six months the world will be changed forever.

The problem is that not only did the US spend much money, but so did other countries. The situation is even worst than that of WWI because now we're talking about much larger countries - The US, Iran, China, etc. For either side to take over the other will require massive efforst.

btw: I don't argue with people. That waste to much time and energy trying to convince someone there wrong and I'm right. I state my opinioun and facts if I have them and leave it be. I've learned no matter how many facts, sources or what ever you give someone, they always have a reason or excuse to either dismiss what you say or ignore it all together. So what's the point. On this forum, there are very few open minded people.

So force them to be open minded - bring them to a dead end. What are you doing in a forum if you don't want to debate things?

Lets see if you, Mr. G, have an open mind. Take 27mins and listen....
http://www.suesupriano.com/audio/MikeRuppert.mp3

I don't know if I have an open mind, but I do know that I don't have 27 mins. I'll listen to it when I'll have the time.

 

[TheTruth]

The problem is that not only did the US spend much money, but so did other countries. The situation is even worst than that of WWI because now we're talking about much larger countries - The US, Iran, China, etc. For either side to take over the other will require massive efforst.

My point is that nuclear weapons will be used. If not on people directly, than it will be used for its electromagnetic pulse. Nothing can dismantle the US navy or any navy, faster than a electromagnetic pulse. Communication, gone in a instant!

The US, and the rest of the world knows that the ME sits on 2/3 of earth's remaining oil. China, India and Russia, just to name a few, aren't going to sit back and let the US take Iran like they did Iraq. This comes down to the survival of the fittest. America started it just like they started the cold war, but this time it wont end has pretty.

So force them to be open minded - bring them to a dead end. What are you doing in a forum if you don't want to debate things?

To make people like you aware. By being aware of the situation before it happens allows ajustment to the situation alot easier and quicker.

I don't know if I have an open mind, but I do know that I don't have 27 mins. I'll listen to it when I'll have the time.

Sure!

 

[G-Man]

My point is that nuclear weapons will be used. If not on people directly, than it will be used for its electromagnetic pulse. Nothing can dismantle the US navy or any navy, faster than a electromagnetic pulse. Communication, gone in a instant!

The US, and the rest of the world knows that the ME sits on 2/3 of earth's remaining oil. China, India and Russia, just to name a few, aren't going to sit back and let the US take Iran like they did Iraq. This comes down to the survival of the fittest. America started it just like they started the cold war, but this time it wont end has pretty.

What makes you think that the US is trying to take over Iran?

To make people like you aware. By being aware of the situation before it happens allows ajustment to the situation alot easier and quicker.

What's the point of making me aware of something I don't believe is true?

 

[Chieftess]

simply take any page out of the iraq book, and magnify it several times

just to throw out some costs for starters:
internally within the US: civil unrest, impeachment attempt, riots and possibly violence, draft if US needs to remove iranian leadership and occupy iran, civil war in the worst scenario

I've been noticing that line of thought lately in several places... (MSNBC seems to like drilling that thought in too. Why, there's even a Civ3 scenario like that.). If Bush starts the draft, you'll probably not only have political demonstrations from youth, but from the 70s generation who already went through it.

internationally: further loss of american credibility, further encouragement for europe, russia and china to form tighter relations, possible break up between the US and the UN, dramatically increased terrorism (iran now will not hold back), possible mid east war, possible world war

I could see a WWIII coming out of this if Bush invades Iran, and China backs the Middle East (China gets their oil from the Middle East too, I think). Kind of has me thinking about the "Peak Oil" concept that the world's oil reserves are on the decline (one estimate is 20 years left. Another is 2050 - an early 90's estimate I learned when I was in school). Reminds me of some sci fi books/movies I've read/seen.

Here's what I think..

If worst comes to worst, and the US is embroiled in internal strife (be it riots, unrest due to a draft, etc.), and is out of the international picture, the world will be in *WORSE* shape, allowing nations to freely go to war without fear of a super-power attacking them.

Iran would attack Iraq, Israel.
China would attack Taiwan (I think that's the one China claims is their's).
The middle east would still be at "war" with Russia over Checneya
And who knows if Russia will "get tough" with the Middle East, causing tensions between Russia and China.
Tempers flair, nukes fly.

That's what I think the worst case scenario is if the US is put out of the picture. Power vacuum.

...and civilization marches on. (or what would be left of it)

 

[TheTruth]

What makes you think that the US is trying to take over Iran?

Ummmm... Lets see.
1. Iran was named one of the "Axis of Evil" by the president.
2. The president has tried to associate Iran to 9/11. (July, 04)
3. "It is our judgment that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons program, and we'll all have to take note of this," Powell said on July 29.

Didn't I hear the same stuff prior to the invasion of Iraq? Come to find out none of it was true.

What's the point of making me aware of something I don't believe is true?

It really doesn't matter if you believe. But when the next "9/11" happens and Iran is blamed, with no evidence, and the draft is implemented atleast you will know why. Cheap Oil!

 

[TheTruth]

I've been noticing that line of thought lately in several places... (MSNBC seems to like drilling that thought in too. Why, there's even a Civ3 scenario like that.). If Bush starts the draft, you'll probably not only have political demonstrations from youth, but from the 70s generation who already went through it.



I could see a WWIII coming out of this if Bush invades Iran, and China backs the Middle East (China gets their oil from the Middle East too, I think). Kind of has me thinking about the "Peak Oil" concept that the world's oil reserves are on the decline (one estimate is 20 years left. Another is 2050 - an early 90's estimate I learned when I was in school). Reminds me of some sci fi books/movies I've read/seen.

Here's what I think..

If worst comes to worst, and the US is embroiled in internal strife (be it riots, unrest due to a draft, etc.), and is out of the international picture, the world will be in *WORSE* shape, allowing nations to freely go to war without fear of a super-power attacking them.

Iran would attack Iraq, Israel.
China would attack Taiwan (I think that's the one China claims is their's).
The middle east would still be at "war" with Russia over Checneya
And who knows if Russia will "get tough" with the Middle East, causing tensions between Russia and China.
Tempers flair, nukes fly.

That's what I think the worst case scenario is if the US is put out of the picture. Power vacuum.

...and civilization marches on. (or what would be left of it)

That is the scenario if the US continues on this path for control of the last remaining cheap oil. China would definitly attack Taiwan. They probably will any way. See this..http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/6/17/135930.shtml
Russia would probably side with China. Seeing that Russia shares a border with China. Not just any border either. The newly found gold mine is less than 50clicks from the border. There biggest oil field in Siberia is close enough to China to make China's mouth water. I don't think Russia wants 2 or 3 PLA division running across there borders. Plus, I don't think Russia would want a China tactical nuke landing on Moscow. So they would either remain neutral or join China, Iran, India and North Korea.

As far as Iran building nukes, that's just our government trying to build public support. That's all. If any thing Iran already has nukes. Cmon people, they could easily purchase them from one or two of there nieghbors. If they couldn't afford it than they could easily trade oil for nukes with China. Considering China already gets its oil from Iran.

 

[G-Man]

Ummmm... Lets see.
1. Iran was named one of the "Axis of Evil" by the president.
2. The president has tried to associate Iran to 9/11. (July, 04)
3. "It is our judgment that Iran is developing nuclear weapons and a nuclear weapons program, and we'll all have to take note of this," Powell said on July 29.

Didn't I hear the same stuff prior to the invasion of Iraq? Come to find out none of it was true.

The US also said similar things about North Korea and Syria. But the fact is that the US is not building up forces for an invasion, doesn't make any attempt to get international or even internal legitimation for such a move, doesn't present other unpopular policies of the Iranian regime, etc. All these things lead me to believe that although the US considers Iran to be a hostile country, they currently have no intentions of taking over it.

It really doesn't matter if you believe. But when the next "9/11" happens and Iran is blamed, with no evidence, and the draft is implemented atleast you will know why. Cheap Oil!

You mean cheap oil like we have now after the war in Iraq?

 

[romelus]

g-man, this just in

diplomacy worked. iran just agreed to suspend uranium enrichment after negotiations with the UK, france, and germany.

stronger argument against a reckless attack than i could ever give.

and china gets to keep the gas deal

 

[Sanaz]

stronger argument against a reckless attack than i could ever give.

In G-man's defense (not that he needs it), he has said continuously that he would rather see a diplomatic solution followed by close monitoring to be sure that Iran doesn't retart its program in secret.

 

[romelus]

In G-man's defense (not that he needs it), he has said continuously that he would rather see a diplomatic solution followed by close monitoring to be sure that Iran doesn't retart its program in secret.

quote please

 

[Azadre]

I remember in 2000 when I said the US and China would go to war... and it was over a mere spy plane.

 

[TheTruth]

The US also said similar things about North Korea and Syria. But the fact is that the US is not building up forces for an invasion, doesn't make any attempt to get international or even internal legitimation for such a move, doesn't present other unpopular policies of the Iranian regime, etc. All these things lead me to believe that although the US considers Iran to be a hostile country, they currently have no intentions of taking over it.

North Korea? Lol.. Ill would have a nuke heading towards Tokyo and Soul within minutes of any US invasion. No, NK is to dangerous. Syria, is just to damn small.
You really trust this administration with all your heart, don't you? lol.. Strong talks to invade Iraq didn't begin until 03, but we now know plans were being wrote up in 01.

You mean cheap oil like we have now after the war in Iraq?

Yup. If only those damn insurgents would stop blowing up pipelines, than maybe I could get my gas for $1.60 again.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I remember in 2000 when I said the US and China would go to war... and it was over a mere spy plane.

Actually it was over the spy plane, a Chinese fighter(which crashed and killed its idiot pilot) along with the entire crew of the P-3 Orion. Wars have started over less.

The Chinese demanded an apology for something their idiot pilot did. And George Bush apologized. Made me sick.

 

[Marla_Singer]

North Korea? Lol.. Ill would have a nuke heading towards Tokyo and Soul within minutes of any US invasion. No, NK is to dangerous. Syria, is just to damn small.

Syria isn't really smaller than Iraq. 20 million people in one country, 25 million people in the other. But anyway, it's weird that the tinyness of a country would be detrimental to invade it... do you see this as a kind of challenge or something ?
(just kidding)

Anyway, I agree with G-Man. Bush will certainly not attack Iran in the upcoming years. For this, a draft would be necessary and no one wants this in the US. Actually, I think no countries will be invaded anymore during Bush's 2nd mandate. I hardly see how anyone could be without a draft (or a release from Iraq).

 

[Dann]

Actually it was over the spy plane, a Chinese fighter(which crashed and killed its idiot pilot) along with the entire crew of the P-3 Orion. Wars have started over less.

Clarifications:
1) It wasn't a P-3 Orion.
2) Both sides claimed it was the other plane which crashed into it.
3) Only the Chinese pilot died. The American plane, damaged, was forced to make an emergency landing in Hainan. All of the American crew survived. They were detained by China and eventually returned.
4) The plane was also returned. In pieces. The Chinese took it apart and studied everything.

The Chinese demanded an apology for something their idiot pilot did. And George Bush apologized. Made me sick.

.....

 

[Bugfatty300]

Clarifications:
1) It wasn't a P-3 Orion.
2) Both sides claimed it was the other plane which crashed into it.
3) Only the Chinese pilot died. The American plane, damaged, was forced to make an emergency landing in Hainan. All of the American crew survived. They were detained by China and eventually returned.
4) The plane was also returned. In pieces. The Chinese took it apart and studied everything.

1. It was a P-3 Orion. An EP-3E (Aires II) version to be exact.
2. Well if both planes came into contact with the other then bothe sides are correct.
3. I know
4. Not surprising. The Russians did the same with a B-29 during WWII except they actaully copied it and built their own version.

The Chinese pilot was a known "hot dogger" to both the Americans who flew the area and the Chinese.

Hot doggers tend to get people needlesly killed(US Fighter/Italian Cable Car incident)

 

[TheTruth]

Syria isn't really smaller than Iraq. 20 million people in one country, 25 million people in the other. But anyway, it's weird that the tinyness of a country would be detrimental to invade it... do you see this as a kind of challenge or something ?
(just kidding)

Anyway, I agree with G-Man. Bush will certainly not attack Iran in the upcoming years. For this, a draft would be necessary and no one wants this in the US. Actually, I think no countries will be invaded anymore during Bush's 2nd mandate. I hardly see how anyone could be without a draft (or a release from Iraq).

Only time will tell. I'm going to bookmark this thread. Hopefully in a year or two I won't need to revisit it.
1....

 

[TheTruth]

btw: What I meant by small was there oil fields are small. Syria's oil peaked years ago. They are on the upper part of the bell-shaped curve now. The US consumes more barrels per day than Syria puts out. Invading them would be useless. Unlike Iraq which has so much untapped black gold....

 

[Nobody]

Australia, New Zealand and South Korea don't have the Palestinian terrorists to try and stop. by G-man

Well south korea has its own problems. But as far as New Zealand and Australia go, I know isnt it great?

 

[G-Man]

diplomacy worked. iran just agreed to suspend uranium enrichment after negotiations with the UK, france, and germany.

But is it under an inspection regime?

stronger argument against a reckless attack than i could ever give.

On the contrary - it was the European pressure that forced Iran to accept this, knowing that otherwise they'll face a UN backed attack on their nuclear facilities.

and china gets to keep the gas deal

Good for them.

quote please

There's still time for diplomacy.
...
It is possible as long as Iran isn't capable of developing a nuke.

BTW Thanks Sanaz