China invasion of Taiwan POLL!

[The Yankee]

You mean all the Hong Kong situations?

 

[stratego]

However, the US has promised to defend Taiwan...should Beijing attack. As long as Beijing doesn't attack...we have the situation we have now. Think of the fleet as not only a defense for Taiwan, but also a tripwire ensuring American involvement....much like the 37,000 soldiers by the DMZ were in South Korea.

This promise makes no sense to me. But aside from that I still think that it's pretty risky for us to have our fleet there.

If China does go to war with Taiwan over independence, and "accidentally" fire a missile at our fleet, what are we going to do? And when I say "accidentally," I mean on purpose. If we have ships there to guard Taiwan, China may very likely fire missiles at the ships, blame it on their inferior weapons and agree to pay a certain sum for the mistake. But that means some of our sailors would be dead. Would we declare war on China for this incident? I don't think so, because Taiwan is not worth it, but our sailors would still be dead.

 

[The Yankee]

They have to go THROUGH our fleet if they ever hope to make a landfall on Taiwan. Otherwise, all they can do is fire missiles and maybe some sorties in the air, but will be combated by any aircraft we have and Taiwan has. And it would never bring Taiwan back into the fold if they never control the land...which is pretty risky business with our fleet in the way.

I think maybe the fleet has prevented Beijing from trying anything before. I don't know about now. But I don't think anything will happen soon if the fleet is there.

 

[stratego]

Agree that would be the idea that we want to express. But are those fleets there to actually protect Taiwan or are they just there to serve as a threat. In the case that China launch missiles at the fleet and claim it to be an accident what would we do about it? Would we declare war? Would we send more fleets? What?

 

[The Yankee]

It would probably be a provocation of war, yes. Nobody will believe it would be an accident, especially given that Beijing has massed even more military equipment across the strait.

I think the fleet serves both as a threat and to protect Taiwan. It is probably of much greater importance than the troops we had at Korea's DMZ because the strait will be critical if Beijing ever hopes to complete its objective, conquering Taiwan. The Korea DMZ troops would help fight, but they are mostly a tripwire and a threat that the US will do something.

 

[JohnRM]

Any Chinese invasion of Taiwan would most likely be accompanied by a North Korean invasion of South Korea.

 

[luiz]

Hong Kong hasn't lost its autonomy in the story. Of course people strongly disagreed with that annexion, and we can understand why, however, the free speech has remained the same. And elections are still organized freely... yourself !!" [/I]

What elections?
There has been no general elections since the chinese take-over!

Peking keeps delaying the promissed elections...now they have settled it for 2007. But I bet big money that by the end of 2006 they will delay it again.

 

[luiz]

Notice that I'm trying to be civil here, because we were both warned. I'm controlling myself not to flame you over your shamefull display of ignorance and apology of tyranny.

wrong. there were very few middle ground citizens. it was a very complete civil war, with civilians joining the communist army en masse. you were also implying that most people didn't support the communists. both your facts and your assumptions were wrong. and there's no need for name calling mr. chimp expert

They had more support then the Nationalists, but not at all of most people. That was the reason why Mao, the inhuman monster, figured it was necessary to make a Cultural Revolution(he said that the people were not communist at heart).

go read some chinese history books before you make a further fool of yourself

I have read many. In fact my first College research was about Chinese economics during Mao's reign. What about you?

where are you basing your assumption from? your own chimp researching brain?

*Disconsiders this remark in respect to eyrei*

both opinion polls and the people i know in taiwan do not support your balatant remarks. they consider themselves chinese, most of them support eventual unification (not with the current government situation, but when the chinese government makes further reforms) over complete separation. Get over it and admit you couldn't know less

So you know little. The surveys clearly point out that the Taiwanese oppose a reunification with the Peking Regime.
They consider theirselves chinese just like some americans consider theirselves to be africans, germans or italians. It doesn't mean that they want a re-unification, though.
*Avoids ending post with flame*

 

[luiz]

have you even been to china or have you been watching too many cultural revolution films? you'd be hard pressed to find a poster of mao anywhere except that portrait of him at tiananmen square, and at sovenier shops

In the Ping-Pong stadiums there is a gigantic poster of Mao. Enough said.

it's amazing someone who obviously doesn't know modern china very well, insists on spewing uninformed and ignorant remarks

Indeed, and I'm looking at you.

 

[Evertonian]

@luiz

There is a clear majority in Taiwan against a declaration of independence.

Also, regarding Mao, the current Government has said some of what happened under his time in power was wrong, and it says some was not. And frankly, it's hard to argue with that. For example it was Mao's communists who finally stamped out barbaric practice of binding women's feet. To my mind, this was a good thing.

Btw thanks for the link on press freedom and I take your point on that issue, but I still don't regard the current generation of the Chinese government as tyrants, and I get the strong impression that most Chinese people don't either.

 

[luiz]

@luiz

There is a clear majority in Taiwan against a declaration of independence.

Also, regarding Mao, the current Government has said some of what happened under his time in power was wrong, and it says some was not. And frankly, it's hard to argue with that. For example it was Mao's communists who finally stamped out barbaric practice of binding women's feet. To my mind, this was a good thing.

Btw thanks for the link on press freedom and I take your point on that issue, but I still don't regard the current generation of the Chinese government as tyrants, and I get the strong impression that most Chinese people don't either.

It's hard to support independence when the consequense will certainly be the anihilation of your people.

You're welcome for the link. But how can you say that a regime with no freedom of press is NOT a tyrant? Freedom of Press is the pillar o Democracy, together with free and general elections(what the chinese also don't have)

Regarding Mao, it's clear that the current government continues with the ridiculous glofification. As I said, even Ping-Pong stadiums have his poster.

And all leaders did some good things. Even Hitler or Stalin. But that's no reason to put thousands of Hitler posters all around Germany, like they do with Mao. All good those dictator might have done is overshadowed by the millions of deads. The Cultural Revolution, together with Holocaust, and the Ukraine terror famine, was one of the worst crimes ever committed against mankind. And the current regime has the nerve to put posters of this guy...really, it's disgusting

 

[test_specimen]

And all leaders did some good things. Even Hitler or Stalin.

There is not one positive thing Hitler did. And don't say he "built the Autobahn".

 

[Evertonian]

You're welcome for the link. But how can you say that a regime with no freedom of press is NOT a tyrant? Freedom of Press is the pillar o Democracy, together with free and general elections(what the chinese also don't have)

Just on this point, it is clear from the information you provided and stuff I read as a follow up elsewhere that newspaper and media outlets in China are tightly controlled and run stories in line with the Government's agenda.

However we also know that there are some participants from China on these forums, who are taking part in our discussions, and certainly the things that you and some others have been posting have not been in line with the Government's agenda. So there certainly is some degree of exposure to anti-Chinese government arguments

 

[Dann]

It's a fact that most people of Taiwai do NOT want to be one with China.

That's true. THIS China. But if it were another China, one with another form of government.... perhaps a democracy...

Some friends of mine had a summer job in China and told me, that propaganda is getting to the majority of people like MTV and tap water to us. They lived in families that told them the "truth" about Tibet , as well as about the misled province of Taiwan.

Those families he talked to are either party hacks or those "angry youth" I mentioned before. People here in the cities have a somewhat middle of the line approach to everything. And no one would claim Taiwan is "misled", just different. They know WHY Taiwan refuses to join them.

Compared to the KMT regime, the PRC is a lot more beneficial to the ppl of China, and they're doing better as well...

Both had their fair share of achievements and atrocities. The KMT got rid of all the warlords during the 1920s-1930s, but turned dictatorial and corrupt. That is why the communists were able to gain support from a substantial portion of the disgruntled peasants, mostly from the countryside. (City folk were mostly pro-KMT during the civil war.)

The communists, once they've gained power, were then saddled with Mao's disastrous programs like the Great Leap Forward, which resulted in famine and death, and the Cultural Revolution, a blatant attempt to make mindless drones out of an entire population if there ever was one. Not to mention the endless purges. Things started climbing uphill only in the 1980s, under Deng. That's why now he is the big hero. Not Mao.

On Taiwan, the remnants of the KMT weren't initially that benevolent either. There were also atrocities committed on the native population, though not on as large a scale as China's. Progress on Taiwan started also only during the late 1970s, under Chiang Kai Shek's SON Jiang Jing Guo.

And history disagrees with you. The Communists produced much more victims then the Nationalists (who were also evil, but not as evil as the Maoists).

No argument about them both being evil, though we may never know the truth about total numbers on both sides. But threads like these don't help the local folks who read these stuff, since they can't differentiate between Maoists from the 1960s, the current communist government, or China in general. They'd just perceive this as China-bashing by foreigners.

Why don't you tell that to the hundreds of thousands of HKers that regularly take to the streets because Beijing is slowly tightening the noose around their freedoms.

Isn't the fact that they can still take to the streets something already? That is something people in other cities can only dream about!

Who cares China can invade Taiwan for all I care. Go ahead have fun. It's ot worth sending troops to defend it. The cost outweighs the benefits.

Sure you don't want to open up a second front in the Kashmir area and provide some distraction?

@The Yankee
Interesting articles regarding Hongkong. I think this is why they provided that 50-year transition period: The current crop of Hongkong people are still so used to an individualistic, liberal way of life (An HK person will say: "Ngo hai Hongkong yun." instead of: "I'm Chinese.") that any attempt to make them toe the line immediately will cause some chafing. But 50 years is just about enough to produce an 3rd generation of people schooled and raised in the Chinese way...

They had more support then the Nationalists, but not at all of most people. That was the reason why Mao, the inhuman monster, figured it was necessary to make a Cultural Revolution (he said that the people were not communist at heart).

And an entire generation suffered for that. Illiterate cuz all the teachers were sent to the farms. And farmers were tasked to teach instead.

But Mao's picture still hangs in public places because a) would you take down George Washington's portrait? b) what are you gonna replace that big empty space with? Remember Chinese generally dislike change, unless there's something in it for them. Be patient. One day, they'll be hanging Coco-Cola banners instead in ping-pong stadiums.

But how can you say that a regime with no freedom of press is NOT a tyrant? Freedom of Press is the pillar o Democracy, together with free and general elections(what the chinese also don't have)

True. I admit we don't have any of those right now. But you know what? The average peasant doesn't care. Press freedom, elections and stuff ain't gonna put food on his table. Heck he probably never reads the paper anyway. And watches only either soap operas or football on TV. What most people here want is peace and order, stability and a favorable atmosphere to engage in livelihood and secure a future for their children.

However we also know that there are some participants from China on these forums, who are taking part in our discussions, and certainly the things that you and some others have been posting have not been in line with the Government's agenda. So there certainly is some degree of exposure to anti-Chinese government arguments

You have no idea how much exposure there is. All thanks to the internet. Anyway it's perfectly all right now to rant and criticize, just don't grab a megaphone and do it in a public park or something. That's considered disturbing the peace, and forcibly inflicting your opinions on others.

 

[IglooDame]

You have no idea how much exposure there is. All thanks to the internet. Anyway it's perfectly all right now to rant and criticize, just don't grab a megaphone and do it in a public park or something. That's considered disturbing the peace, and forcibly inflicting your opinions on others.

To say that it is some sort of Asian social concept that prefers more stability and security to personal freedoms is IMHO hogwash - one can readily point to Japan and for that matter South Korea and Taiwan as having functioning democracies that have as much if not more individual stability and security as the PRC. That the Communist Party does represent the Chinese people's wishes is a nice thing to say, but without any independent evidence to back it up, it is mere self-supporting hearsay by -surprise- the government of China.


Excerpts from http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/china/ pasted below:

Our main testing examined 203,217 web sites drawn from categories other than sexually explicit content...we found that a total of 18,931 of these sites (9.3%) were blocked in China.

The study's conclusion:

The Chinese government and associated network authorities are clearly continuing to experiment with different forms of blocking, indicating that -- unlike Saudi Arabia, which appears to have a single, declared method of blocking and a much more constant (and apparently smaller) list of non-sexually-explicit blocked sites -- Chinese network filtering is an important instrument of state Internet policy, and one to which significant technical and human resources continue to be devoted.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

I am against fighting China - Such a war would end all human endeavours.

Only a moronic government would sanction a battle like that.

And it would soon be ousted from power.

Well, we could nuke China with our subs without declaring war and blame it on the Americans

 

[stratego]

It would probably be a provocation of war, yes. Nobody will believe it would be an accident, especially given that Beijing has massed even more military equipment across the strait.

I agree that nobody would believe it's an accident, but how would we handle it diplomatically? Given the economic and military condition of the US right now, would the government want a war with China, or would they just accept the monetary reparation? And what would the American people think? Would they support US going to war over Taiwan?

In the Ping-Pong stadiums there is a gigantic poster of Mao. Enough said.

Mao wasn't the best peace time leader in China, but people still respect him for repelling the Japanese invasion. That's why he's all over the place. Look at General/President U.S.Grant; he used the "scorch-earth policy," which people did not like, but he's all over our money because he was able to help preserve the Union.

 

[Dann]

To say that it is some sort of Asian social concept that prefers more stability and security to personal freedoms is IMHO hogwash - one can readily point to Japan and for that matter South Korea and Taiwan as having functioning democracies that have as much if not more individual stability and security as the PRC. That the Communist Party does represent the Chinese people's wishes is a nice thing to say, but without any independent evidence to back it up, it is mere self-supporting hearsay by -surprise- the government of China and Dann.

Note the huge grinning smiley at the end of that paragraph of mine you quoted. There are times when I say something and mean another.

Also, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan have one very noticeable thing in common. All have been under the US's "sphere of influence" since World War II, while China went through nightmarish, paranoid times from the 1950s to the 1970s. Of course the general mindset of the people will be different.

And who's defending the Communist Party? Don't mix me together with the government. What I said was that the Chinese are not very political. As long as any government can provide the goods, the majority of the population wouldn't even care if it's being run by a group of pandas.

 

[stratego]

You're welcome for the link. But how can you say that a regime with no freedom of press is NOT a tyrant? Freedom of Press is the pillar o Democracy, together with free and general elections(what the chinese also don't have)

Freedom of Press and General election is not something the average Chinese citizen wants. When they talk about how great America is or how great the UK is, they always talk about the science and the economy, but hardly about the right to vote or to print what they want. How many immigrants come to America or the UK where their priority is to vote, how many actually end up voting even if they have citizenship? Not having general elections or freedom of press is NOT a basis for tyranny.

 

[romelus]

Notice that I'm trying to be civil here, because we were both warned. I'm controlling myself not to flame you over your shamefull display of ignorance and apology of tyranny.

look, it'll be perfectly clearly who's being ignorant here. just read on... i don't feel like hurling lukewarm insults like you've done again

and no it's not apology of tyranny, it's just the facts

They had more support then the Nationalists, but not at all of most people. That was the reason why Mao, the inhuman monster, figured it was necessary to make a Cultural Revolution(he said that the people were not communist at heart).

1. cultural revolution is YEARS AFTER the civil war. we were talking about the civil war

2. cultural revolution was originally used for internal power fighting. not because the people threatened to revolt. again this is years after china had been established, and not related to the civil war

3. you fail to present any evidence that the majority didn't support either side in the civil war

I have read many. In fact my first College research was about Chinese economics during Mao's reign. What about you?

you need to do research on the civil war itself. you are obviously getting the two mixed up

The surveys clearly point out that the Taiwanese oppose a reunification with the Peking Regime.

remember what i said, most of them prefer the status quo. less than 5% of them want actual separation. they don't oppose unification, they just have a wait and see attitude

They consider theirselves chinese just like some americans consider theirselves to be africans, germans or italians. It doesn't mean that they want a re-unification, though.

this is pure ignorance. and i bet it's just your own opinion. i know people in taiwan, a lot of them also have close relatives in china (it hasn't even been one generation yet). it's more akin to both north korean and south koreans considering themselves koreans, than your american immigrant example