China

[BenchBreaker]

Maybe its random but the AI is doing pretty bad as China since the latest science change

All their bonuses basically translate into high population but now science has been removed from population should they get some additional mechanics that are more interesting?

something along the lines of culture assimilation or vassalage/city states tributes would be be fitting

like depending on your cultural influence you could demand tribute without or with less consequences

or foreign cultures gets assimilated (somehow), there were major incidents in history where China was conquered by Mongols and Manchus but they were simply assimilated into the Chinese culture in the end

so maybe if they lose cities they still get the culture from that city as long as it was originally Chinese

 

[Funak]

China have been doing poorly since the removal of their old UB, but the science-change certainly isn't helping them.

 

[dylansan]

It's a shame because I really enjoyed their mechanic the last time I played.

I haven't seen a specific thread to discuss whether removing science from population was the right solution. Personally I'm still not sold on it and China is a good example of why.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Call me crazy but I really like the science change at first glance, although it needs to be tuned a bit for sure. And China would indeed need some science buff, either from UA or from UB.

 

[JungleBucks]

Call me crazy but I really like the science change at first glance, although it needs to be tuned a bit for sure. And China would indeed need some science buff, either from UA or from UB.

With population not being what it used to be, the Paper Maker should definitely make a return, providing stronger science then the Tea Pavilion accordingly, at the cost of the food emphasis.

Edit: Should still be food based on population though, to tie in with China's population focus.

 

[dylansan]

Maybe all China needs is something to reassociate population with science. Add some science per x citizens to their UB so they're still all about growing but it actually benefits them.

 

[Gazebo]

It's a shame because I really enjoyed their mechanic the last time I played.

I haven't seen a specific thread to discuss whether removing science from population was the right solution. Personally I'm still not sold on it and China is a good example of why.

The science change was absolutely the right way to go. We're still balancing it. Remember that people hated the happiness system for the first few months.

G

 

[Funak]

Remember that people hated the happiness system for the first few months.

I think you're really exaggerating that part. I remember a lot of people being confused, and complaining about things not working properly (which they weren't, so that's fair), not actually hating the system. I mean no one liked the vanilla happiness system anyways, it was way too bland.

 

[Gazebo]

I think you're really exaggerating that part. I remember a lot of people being confused, and complaining about things not working properly (which they weren't, so that's fair), not actually hating the system. I mean no one liked the vanilla happiness system anyways, it was way too bland.

Really not. The amount of PMs I got from users complaining about it was staggering (just FYI, a lot of users that don't want to post publicly message me personally when they have questions or concerns).

G

 

[Funak]

Really not. The amount of PMs I got from users complaining about it was staggering (just FYI, a lot of users that don't want to post publicly message me personally when they have questions or concerns).

Whatever, hopefully you come around to see the error in your ways, until then this thread is about fixing China

Maybe all China needs is something to reassociate population with science. Add some science per x citizens to their UB so they're still all about growing but it actually benefits them.

I don't remember how the Chinese UB looks anymore, it used to be a science food building and then it got changed to a (really weak) culture science building, did it get changed again now when the the science got reworked?

 

[Revolutionist_8]

With population not being what it used to be, the Paper Maker should definitely make a return, providing stronger science then the Tea Pavilion accordingly, at the cost of the food emphasis.

Edit: Should still be food based on population though, to tie in with China's population focus.

Agreed. China was a cradle of civilization, they deserve science and high population Question is how to combine them. Maybe Paper Maker (or Tea Pavilion) could give science per population? It would synergize well with their UA (just as sir dylansan said).

 

[Sun Pope]

Agreed. China was a cradle of civilization, they deserve science and high population Question is how to combine them. Maybe Paper Maker (or Tea Pavilion) could give science per population? It would synergize well with their UA (just as sir dylansan said).

According to the Wiki, Tea Pavillions actually give 1 science per 4 citizens in a city. I haven't played or looked at China in-game recently, so this might not still be on the current patch.

 

[Gazebo]

According to the Wiki, Tea Pavillions actually give 1 science per 4 citizens in a city. I haven't played or looked at China in-game recently, so this might not still be on the current patch.

That's still what it does. People stating that it is not a good UB are simply not reading the civilopedia. You'll have a per-pop science UB well before anyone else.

G

 

[Funak]

That's still what it does. People stating that it is not a good UB are simply not reading the civilopedia. You'll have a per-pop science UB well before anyone else.

That's really unfair to say. The building comes really late and the only difference between it and a normal operahouse is 1 science/4pop, no baseyields, no earlier unlocks, no speicalists, it is probably the most underwhelming UB in the game.

 

[JungleBucks]

That's really unfair to say. The building comes really late and the only difference between it and a normal operahouse is 1 science/4pop, no baseyields, no earlier unlocks, no speicalists, it is probably the most underwhelming UB in the game.

True. Plus the Paper Maker was a very early building since it was a Library replacement. That early science would be a pretty good buff to compensate for losing science from population (though the effect might have to be toned down accordingly).

Edit: Now that I think of it, the Paper Maker would logically make a better early Chancery replacement than Library replacement. At the very least it would provide paper or provide points for Great Diplomats.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

Agreed with JungleBucks and Funak here.

 

[Gazebo]

True. Plus the Paper Maker was a very early building since it was a Library replacement. That early science would be a pretty good buff to compensate for losing science from population (though the effect might have to be toned down accordingly).

Edit: Now that I think of it, the Paper Maker would logically make a better early Chancery replacement than Library replacement. At the very least it would provide paper or provide points for Great Diplomats.

I'm reluctant to make a UB off of a non-standard building (Chancery = CSD), as I'd have to maintain two UBs for China.

We can move it back to the library slot if desired, now that Assyria no longer holds the spot.

G

 

[JungleBucks]

I'm reluctant to make a UB off of a non-standard building (Chancery = CSD), as I'd have to maintain two UBs for China.

We can move it back to the library slot if desired, now that Assyria no longer holds the spot.

G

Good point Gazebo.

 

[Funak]

I'm reluctant to make a UB off of a non-standard building (Chancery = CSD), as I'd have to maintain two UBs for China.

We can move it back to the library slot if desired, now that Assyria no longer holds the spot.

I don't think it is necessarily in a bad spot as an opera house, but the benefits from it are completely underwhelming.

 

[PurpleMentat]

I don't think it is necessarily in a bad spot as an opera house, but the benefits from it are completely underwhelming.

I honestly find China underwhelming these days. Arabia's UA has displaced everything I liked about China. Until you get through most of Aesthetics, the most reliable way to trigger the UA is to chase Great People, and Arabia actually has a bonus to Great People.

I don't have anything constructive to add here. Just that, every time I've thought to play China recently, Arabia got played instead. China's UA can't really work off Historic Events without a complete overhaul, and the bonuses from Great People feel lackluster compared to Arabia.