China

[Zakuzelo]

A lot of hard words for someone who has participated to no discussion on the matter before. This is the best way to be ignored here, you know.

Also, there is nothing sacred here : no ability needs to be present just because it was in vanilla. Things are there because one member of the team decided it was better like this, most often after consulting with other members. If you want to discuss the validity of that idea, you can try to ask in a calm manner what were the motivations, and then perharps you'll have an answer, and we can discuss.

You're right, I'm sorry, that was too harsh.
My thoughts are unchanged, though. Why on Earth was the Chu-Ko-Nu changed like this? China's UA rewards you for gaining cities. Why would you take away the one aspect of their kit that facilitates that?

 

[stii]

Chu-Ko-Nu went from maybe the best UU to still one of the best UU.

China overall is a mid level civ. Things get stronger and weaker all the time there is no particular reason why they should just get stronger.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Chu-Ko-Nu went from maybe the best UU to still one of the best UU.

China overall is a mid level civ. Things get stronger and weaker all the time there is no particular reason why they should just get stronger.

Maybe the best? I question that. They were very strong, but still got bowled over by knights.
Still one of the best? I question that even more. The city guard half of the promotion is alright, but defensive promotions don't make a unit 'one of the best.' And splash damage is...okay? I guess? That's typically 5-10 total damage per shot, maybe 15. It's not great.
And I'm not saying the unit needed to get stronger, I'm saying it should have been left alone.

 

[stii]

Maybe the best? I question that. They were very strong, but still got bowled over by knights.
Still one of the best? I question that even more. The city guard half of the promotion is alright, but defensive promotions don't make a unit 'one of the best.' And splash damage is...okay? I guess? That's typically 5-10 total damage per shot, maybe 15. It's not great.
And I'm not saying the unit needed to get stronger, I'm saying it should have been left alone.

Any upgrade that buffs units you build more of is more powerful. Armies shouldn't have huge numbers of melee units so UU comp/bow/xbow/muskets are generally the strongest even if they don't provide huge bonuses because they simply apply to more of your units. When you hit a critical mass even more xbows don't get killed by knights because they can't finish you off before you pull the damaged units back, while the knights and other units do get wiped out by your ranged units.

So if they aren't some of the best UU, what are the best UU?

 

[KlHannibal2]

So if they aren't some of the best UU, what are the best UU?

Hwacha for ranged, winged hussar for cav, sea beggar for ships would be my picks. Panzer was also insanely strong, but very late.

Cho Ko Nu was very good for defense, but not so much for offense IMO.

Hwacha I value above old Chu Ko Nu (both with logistics) because the siege line gets indirect fire, plus 1 range and plus 1 move in the later game while the ranged line gets nothing of comparable strength.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Any upgrade that buffs units you build more of is more powerful. Armies shouldn't have huge numbers of melee units so UU comp/bow/xbow/muskets are generally the strongest even if they don't provide huge bonuses because they simply apply to more of your units. When you hit a critical mass even more xbows don't get killed by knights because they can't finish you off before you pull the damaged units back, while the knights and other units do get wiped out by your ranged units.

So if they aren't some of the best UU, what are the best UU?

Speak for yourself. I tend to have pretty similar numbers of melee and ranged units. And that's not at all answering my question about why the Chu Ko Nu was nerfed.

 

[stii]

Speak for yourself. I tend to have pretty similar numbers of melee and ranged units. And that's not at all answering my question about why the Chu Ko Nu was nerfed.

Your question has been answered you just don't like it.

Play the game however you like, build whatever you want. But complaining is never getting things changed back when your only reason for doing so it because you want it.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Your question has been answered you just don't like it.

Play the game however you like, build whatever you want. But complaining is never getting things changed back when your only reason for doing so it because you want it.

No, it wasn't. I asked why the Chu Ko Nu was changed, and you responded that it was still a good unit. That doesn't answer anything.

 

[pineappledan]

FWIW I am also in support of having the Chu Ko Nu changed back to having logistics. I think it fits well with the idea of a unit with a repeating crossbow, moreso than the current splash promotion. The recent change to Logistics means that units only gain XP for their 1st attack each turn, which means that the power of free logistics to gain levels quickly is hampered.

I think the reasoning right now is that there are just too many units with free logistics, and it might be fun on a certain unit in a vacuum, but overall the unique unit designs can get repetitive and dull.

I am starting a thread with some of the balance changes which we have been discussing on the Discord in the General balance subforum. One of the changes to discuss is swapping the ChuKoNu's unique splash/city bonus with the Hwacha's free logistics.

 

[Rekk]

No, it wasn't. I asked why the Chu Ko Nu was changed, and you responded that it was still a good unit. That doesn't answer anything.

Free logistics at level 1 is currently just too powerful in VP. It allows the Chu-Ko-Nu to outlevel all other units in the game aside from maybe Zulu. That isn't even mentioning that logistics is also one of the strongest promotions in the game on its own.

This change was made 2.5 years ago. There are a number of posts discussing the unit as it was in this very thread, not to mention other threads.

 

[Zakuzelo]

Free logistics at level 1 is currently just too powerful in VP. It allows the Chu-Ko-Nu to outlevel all other units in the game aside from maybe Zulu. That isn't even mentioning that logistics is also one of the strongest promotions in the game on its own.

This change was made 2.5 years ago. There are a number of posts discussing the unit as it was in this very thread, not to mention other threads.

I realize it's strong, but too powerful? Chu-Ko-Nu are China's only warfare bonus. Zulu have their entire kit dedicated to war, China just has this. Were weaker crossbows with logistics seriously enough to make China's entire wargame overpowered? And would that still be the case with the newer, nerfed logistics?
And two and a half years, god damn. That's pretty humbling.

 

[Rosete]

ChuKoNu is insanely strong with logistics. Before, once China get ChuKoNu the game is as good as won. They can tank 1-3 mele hits and absolutely obliterate any and all opposition. If they got the range promotion the ChuKoNu became literally untouchable. Logistics at level 1 is very problematic because they are just that strong, more so when it is given to a range unit.