China

[KittyKat3120]

Got it to work:
Thicc China
UA: Mandate of Heaven
+1 and and a 'We Love the Empress Day' in All Cities whenever a city gains its 8th Citizen. Bonus yields are halved on Era Change. +10% and in Cities during 'We Love the Empress Day'.

UB: Paper Maker (Library)
+2 +1
No Maintenance
1 Scientist slot
-1 Illiteracy
1 Specialist does not generate Urbanization
Internal Trade Routes to or from this city provide 20 and 20 on Completion, scaling with Era.
+1 and +1 in this City whenever you create a Great Work. Bonus yields are halved on Era Change.

Yay thank you v much ^-^
Noticed that the paper maker still uses 1 gold for maintenance thou 0-0

 

[pineappledan]

@KittyKat3120, I figured "why stop at my issues with China?" So go here is a mini modmod with my wishlist changes to both China and Spain.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I'm curious why we still keep the food for China's UA. While the extra growth is nice, the current situation makes that extra growth in the early game cause a lot of unhappiness. With limitations to how many cities you can get without unhappiness being unmanageable, it's also harder to make use of the UA due to the bonus decay when you enter a new era. In the past, you want to get as many cities as possible to benefit from the UA if you want to go wide. Now, the changes to Settlers and slower expansion makes the yields from gaining cities weaker.

I'm curious how other people feel about the current China with the changes over the last few patches.

 

[Dolen2]

More free-worker food means more production and other stuff.
I see no problem in food bonus being part of UA.

 

[andersw]

I'm curious why we still keep the food for China's UA. While the extra growth is nice, the current situation makes that extra growth in the early game cause a lot of unhappiness. With limitations to how many cities you can get without unhappiness being unmanageable, it's also harder to make use of the UA due to the bonus decay when you enter a new era. In the past, you want to get as many cities as possible to benefit from the UA if you want to go wide. Now, the changes to Settlers and slower expansion makes the yields from gaining cities weaker.

I'm curious how other people feel about the current China with the changes over the last few patches.

Havent played as china in awhile but the more hills you have around your cities the better the UA becomes, if you start in a flat area the food is probably not that useful.
Still it's probably good for expanding early with authority, I know how much I've come to value god of the sea for its extra food.

 

[Stalker0]

Normally when people talk about China they talk about the bonuses, but I want to look at the UU for a minute. One of my concerns with the Chu-Ko-Nu is I feel that's its practically 2 UU in one. Its a great UU on its own, but then when you upgrade it you effectively get the most powerful musketmen in the game as well. So I feel that China has this long period of time when there ranged units just obliterate anything in sight...and in a way I don't feel as much from some other civs (with the exception of England for the same reason...aka logistics on all ranged units). By g guns there is still some of that, but also other civs are starting to get more logistics naturally at this point, so its not quite so bad. But still....two eras of having one of the strongest units imo is pretty strong...and combined with all of China's other bonuses continue to put her at top tier for me.

 

[Zanteogo]

This is true for lots of UU that keep their bonuses on upgrade. It’s also why the civs that get their UU earlier than later get a large advantage.

I also notice this doesn’t seem to be taken into account for most of the UU. The ones that unlock late game should be generally more powerful than the ones that unlock early game... Panzer anyone?

 

[andersw]

Normally when people talk about China they talk about the bonuses, but I want to look at the UU for a minute. One of my concerns with the Chu-Ko-Nu is I feel that's its practically 2 UU in one. Its a great UU on its own, but then when you upgrade it you effectively get the most powerful musketmen in the game as well. So I feel that China has this long period of time when there ranged units just obliterate anything in sight...and in a way I don't feel as much from some other civs (with the exception of England for the same reason...aka logistics on all ranged units). By g guns there is still some of that, but also other civs are starting to get more logistics naturally at this point, so its not quite so bad. But still....two eras of having one of the strongest units imo is pretty strong...and combined with all of China's other bonuses continue to put her at top tier for me.

Yes, they are insane good and keeps on giving as muskets and later there is the same issue with the Incas, the early slingers are even more op.
Babylonian bowmen is an example of a good useful that is not equally broken.
Ottomans Janissaries are very strong but gets online later (free promo +25% Offensive cs on attack).

 

[Stalker0]

I will say that even after the recent nerfs, I still see China at the top of the charts quite a bit, and when she tends to get high she has a very strong runaway potential.

 

[pineappledan]

I will say that even after the recent nerfs, I still see China at the top of the charts quite a bit, and when she tends to get high she has a very strong runaway potential.

its that turn 1 bonus, my dude. No way around it.

that’s why I advocated for taking away their on found bonus and replacing it with something else.

 

[Stalker0]

its that turn 1 bonus, my dude. No way around it.

that’s why I advocated for taking away their on found bonus and replacing it with something else.

Playing China again after a long hiatus, I personally don't think its China's strong start (per say). The trick with China is....you can very easily get permanent WLTKD in all of your cities by mid game, and if you combine that with WLTKD synergies, you are going to skyrocket.

Give them the WLTKD religious bonus + the religious building, and they take off like a rocket. I personally think we are nerfing the wrong thing. Instead of reducing the food and gold bonus at the era changes, I think there empress days should be reset to 0. This at least gives some incentive to kick those back up in later eras, instead of just leaning back on an infinite WLTKD run.

 

[pineappledan]

Well, I'm still pretty happy with my thicc china rework, so I've basically recused myself from the China balance debate.

 

[andersw]

Playing China again after a long hiatus, I personally don't think its China's strong start (per say). The trick with China is....you can very easily get permanent WLTKD in all of your cities by mid game, and if you combine that with WLTKD synergies, you are going to skyrocket.

Give them the WLTKD religious bonus + the religious building, and they take off like a rocket. I personally think we are nerfing the wrong thing. Instead of reducing the food and gold bonus at the era changes, I think there empress days should be reset to 0. This at least gives some incentive to kick those back up in later eras, instead of just leaning back on an infinite WLTKD run.

I was about to start a china game (and I like to play wide)

Lots of WLKD, good for very early game because of the fast growth and the extra gold is welcome.

Papermaker +10% gold during wlkd and 1g/4pop is ok but the one culture from a "library" looks like a bargain.
The Chu-Ko-Nu looks mostly like a defensve unit and splash is a bit meh until you get range (then its still mostly to get the AI to retreat units).

For religion Theocracic Rule (15% faith, culture and gold), Synagogue (10%science) gain yields from WLKD.
Looking at your post it seems worth to build a religion around WLKD.
Any other religious option that are very strong for china?

It does look very Tradition oriented, since creating great works also produce WLKD.
Are the bonuses and GPT enough to make a gold monster out it? Theocratic rule, cathedrals?
Of course any religious "must haves" in a strat is dicey since they arent a garantuee.

Maybe its better than it looks....

edit: I guess rushing mausuleum is also great

 

[Alpakinator]

Does starving your 8 citizen cities and gaining 8th citizen again allow for gaining the bonus repeatedly in Thicc China version?

 

[pineappledan]

This discussion should continue in the tweaks mod. The UA triggers at 5 pop now. It was too weak at 8

No. It tracks if the city has grown 5 times, not if the city has grown to a population of 5. So if you have starved a city or built settlers (which each reduce the pop by 1) it is possible to trigger the UA at a smaller population.

 

[Alpakinator]

That's Nice! Current CBP China allows for UA spamming by conquering a city, letting it to be conquered back by the enemy, conquering again and so on. You can quickly gain stupid amounts of food and gold in every city.

 

[Recursive]

That's Nice! Current CBP China allows for UA spamming by conquering a city, letting it to be conquered back by the enemy, conquering again and so on. You can quickly gain stupid amounts of food and gold in every city.

That could be easily fixed...

 

[azum4roll]

Doesn't that only work the first time you acquire a city?

 

[Zakuzelo]

I'm not sure when Chu-Ko-Nu lost their Logistics promotion in favor of Siege Volleys, but it's an absolutely unacceptable change and needs to be reverted immediately. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people played China solely because of that double shot, and that's been the case since vanilla Civ 5. It's an absolutely iconic ability for the unit and civ that should not be removed under any, any circumstances.

 

[Hinin]

I'm not sure when Chu-Ko-Nu lost their Logistics promotion in favor of Siege Volleys, but it's an absolutely unacceptable change and needs to be reverted immediately. I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people played China solely because of that double shot, and that's been the case since vanilla Civ 5. It's an absolutely iconic ability for the unit and civ that should not be removed under any, any circumstances.

A lot of hard words for someone who has participated to no discussion on the matter before. This is the best way to be ignored here, you know.

Also, there is nothing sacred here : no ability needs to be present just because it was in vanilla. Things are there because one member of the team decided it was better like this, most often after consulting with other members. If you want to discuss the validity of that idea, you can try to ask in a calm manner what were the motivations, and then perharps you'll have an answer, and we can discuss.