Citizen Pulse : Are you satisfied with the democracy?

Ther does need to be a change to the format. We should try some variant to make it different from all the other games. From what i can tell, since this is my first DG, this game has been run very much in the same fashion as the ones before, and If I was here from one of the previous games, I would be bored too.

I has been amazing how vicious the personal attacks have been in the latter part of this game. The nomination and Poll's for the Trade Minister for this term has had to have been the ugliest I have ever seen. It would put a few hardened Politicians to shame with the mudslinging and false accusations that occured during that time. It was a tough time occured my me and my opponent. I do hope that the next game is a much friendlier game.
 
One thing that kills interest is polling. Polling, polling and more polling. We've gotten to the point, as in every DG, where we poll every last tidbit of information to show that we are following the 'WOTP' so no one can say anything about this not being a democracy. The fact is, insessant polling just bores the hell out of everyone. The leaders do listen to the people though, but a leader can't listen to everyone at the same time, and can't please every single citizen. Sometimes a Leader has to go with his gut feeling, because that's what they're elected for.
 
Civanator said:
One thing that kills interest is polling. Polling, polling and more polling. We've gotten to the point, as in every DG, where we poll every last tidbit of information to show that we are following the 'WOTP' so no one can say anything about this not being a democracy. The fact is, insessant polling just bores the hell out of everyone. The leaders do listen to the people though, but a leader can't listen to everyone at the same time, and can't please every single citizen. Sometimes a Leader has to go with his gut feeling, because that's what they're elected for.

That's where we run into problems. There's the side that wants total democracy and the other wants a republic-ish government. We need to clearly define what powers and authority a leader has in determining the WOTP.
 
Chieftess said:
Oh and another thing. When we decide on the next ruleset, let's keep a time limit to it, like 1 month. None of this "Let's waste an entire season discussing how to post threads and polls!" stuff.
To be blunt, NO.

We've had two DG's where we rushed into it when we weren't ready, and paid for it dearly. Speeding up the creation of the ruleset is one thing, and is a good thing, but setting an arbitrary time limit is, and has been shown to be, a poor decision.

We need to take the time to get it finalized and complete BEFORE we start elections. Rushing into things again is a Bad Thing(tm)

-- Ravensfire
 
I dont blame the squabling over rulesets. I blame the squabling in general.
The game lost its fun. It got dry and pointless, and anything pointles isnt worth pursuing.
For me personally, the death of the game was when the second ball recieved only 12 posts. It was planed and poof, nada. I mean, c'mon... we can't even have fun with a ball?

I'm sticking around for this term. I do hope Crimso comes back so I can just give him the post and leave...

A very disgruntled
SaaM
 
Ashburnham said:
I just thought of something else that might have something to do with our Demogame getting "burnout" in the latter parts of the game. In the beginning of the game, it is fairly easy to go in and out of the game. If someone wants to join, it's a fairly simple process of figuring out what's going on, and catching up on the latest developments. However, as the game progresses and gets more and more complicated, it gets harder and harder to join in. Thus, all the new people that infuse the population of the Demogame in the earlier parts are absent in the later parts of the game.

I'm sure it's not the only reason, but it might partially explain the seemingly chronis lack of players in the later parts of the Demogame.

This brings up something which was present in earlier Demogames, but sadly is missing in this one and has been declining for a while. Leaders used to take pride in keeping information about their area up to date so that anyone could find out the current state of the game by looking in the forum, and did not need to open the save. They also kept links up to date, to current projects, recent decisions, and polls. Presidents kept a detailed summary of the game's progress so that one did not need to struggle through the chat logs to find out what happened. We've even had some very active historians who "printed newspapers" with current events.

Two things seem to be changing which has eroded the more fun aspects of the demogame. The initial set of people seems to have been predisposed to being more role-play, story, and cooperation oriented, though they had their share of disagreements and outright battles. The current set of players doesn't seem to be "into role-play" and thus there is less (even no) driving force toward the "soft" aspects of the game.

Secondly, there has been enough history now where leaders "ignored" the will of the people that some citizens are nervous about that and demand a lot of polling. Add in a few people who think -- rightly so -- that their willingness to be a volunteer leader ought to mean they get to take some independent actions, and you get a recipe for disaster, because the nervous nellies will say poll everything, and the gung-ho leaders will see that as disrespect.

I am starting to forumlate a proposal which is not ready for public consumption yet as a whole, but here are a couple of ideas I've been looking at.

1. Make keeping the people informed part of the job of being a leader, or even a separate job. We should be demanding a minimum performance level in this area, and rewarding people who do a very good job. Since tangible rewards are tough to arrange, we need something intangible. Maybe a monthly or weekly update on the main page with the "Citizen of the Week / Month", or a rating system and points ladder.

2. If we want variety (Conquests for example) then we need to organize the government in a way which lets people participate in meaningful ways even when they can't open the save. For example, in strategic decision making, minute details shouldn't be needed, so given an accurate picture of the current state of the game, you don't even need to have Civ to be a strategic leader, though it helps to have played ;)
 
A couple of things posted by other people that I want to reemphasize:
1. Time limit: NO WAY, or if forced to have one not 1 month. The more time we have, the better chances of having a good ruleset.
2. Something different: this is a nessecity for next DG, this includes the conquests, variants(there are lots!), scenario/map, goverment change, or difficulty change. All of these ideas were proposed for this DG, but were all shot down in favor of the same old thing.
3. I remember in DG4 we had a law(sunshine law, IIRC) where leaders had to post summaries of there information. We either need this or like DS said someone who is elected to post all the information.
4. About the democracy vs republic: I think we will need to define a clear ruleset next DG that is built around this(whatever we decide on).
 
Stuck_As_a_Mac said:
I dont blame the squabling over rulesets. I blame the squabling in general.
The game lost its fun. It got dry and pointless, and anything pointles isnt worth pursuing.
For me personally, the death of the game was when the second ball recieved only 12 posts. It was planed and poof, nada. I mean, c'mon... we can't even have fun with a ball?

I'm sticking around for this term. I do hope Crimso comes back so I can just give him the post and leave...

A very disgruntled
SaaM

Yes, we need more fun. I wouldn't point to that particular event as a watershed event, since I didn't know about it to begin with. :blush:

Can it be salvaged in a future game? Would finding a way to reward people for good storytelling be useful to you? We can't make you stay but enough people bring up this point that it's worthwhile to try to fix it. Do you want to try to be part of a solution?
 
Chieftess said:
Oh and another thing. When we decide on the next ruleset, let's keep a time limit to it, like 1 month. None of this "Let's waste an entire season discussing how to post threads and polls!" stuff.

We've tried that twice and it was a disaster both times. If you would be willing to share any secret information about why there was such a hurry to get started the last two times that would give the citizens a reason we should screw it up again then we can talk about a limit, but lacking a good reason, "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." :D

However, I will say that there is a better way to do a ruleset, and that is to have a Moses come down from the mountain. Well, the ruleset won't quite be at the commandment level, but let's try an almost complete ruleset before the discussion starts, and aim for something that everyone can live with instead of trying to make it perfect.
 
DaveShack said:
We've tried that twice and it was a disaster both times. If you would be willing to share any secret information about why there was such a hurry to get started the last two times that would give the citizens a reason we should screw it up again then we can talk about a limit, but lacking a good reason, "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." :D

However, I will say that there is a better way to do a ruleset, and that is to have a Moses come down from the mountain. Well, the ruleset won't quite be at the commandment level, but let's try an almost complete ruleset before the discussion starts, and aim for something that everyone can live with instead of trying to make it perfect.
well to save time I think the ruleset discussion and game discussion(variants, version, settings, etc) should happen at the same time, as they are mostly not reliant on each other(with a few exceptions like a 5CC having mayors instead of governors and stuff like that)
 
To answer the basic question, I think that the wrong type of polling is going on and there are important things that are never polled. It seems we are often playing a game of minutia instead of modeling a democratic government.

I believe that each term the ministers (either in whole or separately) should establish a mandate via discussion and polling. Then they should follow this mandate with discussions following each turn chat discussing their interpretation of the mandate in relationship to the current situation. If people disagree with the minister then they can call for a confirmation poll on the subject of the day.

I would apply this to everything from city locations, wonder builds, and (potential) war aims.

To put it short: ministers should poll at the start of a term for general direction and then only poll the details if called upon.

This would allow the ministers to have a degree of authority and if people don't like how they ran things then they can vote them out.

Note: Ideally, the ministers stated platform could be part of the nomination discussions and in some cases the election poll itself could provide the mandate. The election could only be used when we have 2 candidates running for a position. If someone doesn't like the platform then they better provide their own and run for a position.
 
As you noted, MOTH, the "mandate" really needs to be part of the election debate.

Our elections were, in general, popularity contests, with minimal debates. I was fortunate enough to run in a contested election that did have a good debate, and found that to be most enjoyable. To go back into several DGs - those contested elections with active, sprited debates were the ones I enjoyed the most.

Show me a minister capable of clearly presenting such a plan, guiding debate as needed and polling good, well explained options, and that's a person I will be strongly inclined to vote for time and time again.

I would note, that the WotP is demonstrated through more than just polls, but through discussions and through elections.

-- Ravensfire
 
I think the Debate standards that we all put in place earlier in the game are a step in the right direction. Refining that process would allow candidates to put forth a platform and how they feel their Ministry should work.
 
First Up: On the Subject of Time Limits: I'm game. So long as the final formation of the Law occurs around December 10 2005 (wiht Rough Drafts finialzed by Halloween) so we can have our Term 1 Elections before Christmas and "Creation Day" on New Year's Eve. Also, tack on the last Day of January and the First of March onto Term 2.

Or perhaps a "Game of Government", wherein our Government and Policies are dictated by the Government we presently function under. , (Of course that would mean 4 different Rulesets, and perhaps us starting off with Chieftess as Chieftain, but still...)

If we get Diplomacy, I'd also be game for a OCC varient with a 20K Culure Goal, as that and histographic would be the only goals remaining.

Hm... what is the legality of putting Conquest and PTW art into a Vanilla Mod?
 
A note about the debates --

They are taking up too much space, pushing the nominations over to the next page. This isn't good when we're trying to get new people, since the nominations will be hidden. They might not know there's nominations down there.

Debate threads should only be posted for contested elections.
 
I think some key players in Term V should look into the various developments this term, and compare these to what worked better in Term IV, this Demogame.
A lot of players had some fun in Term IV, look at the postings.

I see a tendency in the retrospect analysis to blame everyone else, especially those who are not here to defend themselves. I also see some players that has been circling around as pirhanas, just biting at certain people from the side to sow disrespect, and then come in with full force as the depopulation set in, finishing off remaining opposition. It is easy to criticize if you have no alternative to compare to.

This is indeed a sad example of a half functioning demogame where the repair crew has been sniped off from a distance with cyncial, delusioned posters that had no intentions to improve on the flaws we had in the game, and rather direct personal crititcism at those doing a work for the game, ripping apart the existing structure with a constant wave of criticism in place of adding substitute solutions. As if they wanted DG5 to fail in order to make a point for drafting the new constitution for DG 6. I see samples of late game developments as more targeted for jousting for moral high ground and leadership positions for the creation of demogame 5, than to create a worthy environment for concluding a game that was working in some areas. I actually have observed posters who has offered almost no counsel, but swamped the game with a tsunami of negative criticism without offering alternatives, and then present their commercially bundled savior package for the next demogame, presenting active DG players as mislead idiots, dyslectics, inferior pollers, poor civplayers and in general people of a less moral calibre than the double standard cast that can stand above their own actions and statements, for the good of Demogame 6, where these plan to have a strong hand on the constitution.

These could not care about the entertainment value of the game any less, but to degrade people right and left, offer no alternatives, present themselves as neutral professional experts, make the coup de grace to DG5 and then present themselves as with the statements like..."I was right all the way, I was just waiting to say that you all where utterly wrong and I was perfectly right, please bend over, submit, give up further arguments since we took your recognition away and watch the few of us write this brilliant Demogame that will take us several months to write, the Demogame of Demogames and all other demogamers would look at me with envy, and consider me the savior of all demogamers".

I see very few here stand forwards and balance out what went good and wrong, since some of us, for a time, had god fun with the demogame. That someone sought out to ruin it in order to prove they where right on the constitution or other issues is a different matter, I also see some bitterness coincided with the US Presidential election. I think the last terms smear campaigns has really depopulated the game, as well as removing some strategic options. The slow pace of the game also give some people more surplus energy to fight, insult and drag down people instead of playing the game. Some people prefer more infighting than game strategy discussions.

I admit I may be convoluted and verbose at times, but I can see some fundamental flaws in other posters as well, without seeking out to bring them down for semantics, misspellings. In fact, I prefer Ashburnhams preference for public polling, ideological competition and principal discussion structure for Civ3 related strategy dilemmas, than the active 1-2 liner poisonous remarks only targeted on dragging down people, legalese minimalization, rigid idealist principles and in general a blind campaigning for unwanted rules, probably meant for building the support base for a DG6 draft.

I may not have delivered all that I wanted to do here, but I managed to get fine along with a large number of people, entertain them, let them entertain me, and create some material together driving a strategy game forwards. I think some of the legal and principal issues surrounding the game, as well as envy directed on people having some fun making "unnecessary" plans ruined much of the fun.

If someone looks for guineapigs for testing out their paralegal capabilities, they should for for a more clean cut legal game simulation, not abuse someones Civ3 interests, and maybe we could have two parallel DGs, one more civic and one more militaristic.

I can tolerate many things in life, but double standards is not one of them.
 
Chieftess said:
A note about the debates --

They are taking up too much space, pushing the nominations over to the next page. This isn't good when we're trying to get new people, since the nominations will be hidden. They might not know there's nominations down there.

Debate threads should only be posted for contested elections.
time to speak my mind, but someone is gonna kill me:

first, there are 2 reasons why people might not find the nomination threads on the second page:
1. They dont know there is a second page/ dont know how to navigate a forum
2. Dont know the positions

Now Im not shur if we want someone that follows under those 2 categories above as an elected official
 
Sir Donald III said:
First Up: On the Subject of Time Limits: I'm game. So long as the final formation of the Law occurs around December 10 2005 (wiht Rough Drafts finialzed by Halloween) so we can have our Term 1 Elections before Christmas and "Creation Day" on New Year's Eve. Also, tack on the last Day of January and the First of March onto Term 2.

Or perhaps a "Game of Government", wherein our Government and Policies are dictated by the Government we presently function under. , (Of course that would mean 4 different Rulesets, and perhaps us starting off with Chieftess as Chieftain, but still...)

If we get Diplomacy, I'd also be game for a OCC varient with a 20K Culure Goal, as that and histographic would be the only goals remaining.

Hm... what is the legality of putting Conquest and PTW art into a Vanilla Mod?
1. The absolute most between games would be 4 monthes, im shur someone is gonna push it along enough to get it going
2. We thought about that, however its called "Civ3 Democracy Game ##" so it would make sense to have a democracy, and it would also cause lots of confusion and stuff(plus there are more than 4 governments in conquests)
3. One city might be a little radical, last time there was a group of about 10 of us(including me) that pushed for a 5CC, but overall it was shot down because of people not wanting variants
4. I think legal for PTW, but not conquests... I think CT would know the exact answer
 
Chieftess said:
A note about the debates --

They are taking up too much space, pushing the nominations over to the next page. This isn't good when we're trying to get new people, since the nominations will be hidden. They might not know there's nominations down there.

Debate threads should only be posted for contested elections.

actually the debates were supposed to go up in the citizens forum. It was a mistake that will be rectified in future elections.


-Mhcarver
Elections Office
 
mhcarver said:
actually the debates were supposed to go up in the citizens forum. It was a mistake that will be rectified in future elections.


-Mhcarver
Elections Office
lol i forgot about that and I was the one that pointed it out too :blush:
 
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