Civ 4 Rants Thread

That argument might make some kind of sense if Civ IV's squares weren't drawn at a slightly skew angle with perspective, so aren't pixel-perfect either. Might.

Just given as an example, nothing more; it wasn't a statement relating to the Civ games, rather an observation that computers are better (much better) at some types of calculations than others.

... and it's also perfectly clear that has absolutely nothing to do with the hex-based map.

How so? I've coded both square- and hex- based tiled games and the square-based one's algorithms are much more trivial to implement and far easier to optimise.
 
How do hexes increase computational complexity? If there are a lot of game rules that depend strongly the adjacency rules of the gameboard I could imagine hexes having a tiny bit of an impact, but surely that would be dwarfed by the sorts of algorithms that are required in civ, especially those caused by 1UPT. Take path-finding for example. Complexity wise AFAIK there's basically no difference in the speed of a hex vs. square board. I'm curious what sort of games you made where there was a big difference.
 
Time for a rant.

War Chariots are supposed to be good. Right?!

Well, I just threw away 8 as they were utterly incapable of killing 3 lousy barb archers. Even threw a follow-up warrior at them too, but no luck. Either they're much more useless than rumour has it, or the RNG boned me - again.

:mad:

When it says 91% odds. I'm thinking more like 19%. Maybe 50% on a good day.
 
Time for a rant.

War Chariots are supposed to be good. Right?!

Well, I just threw away 8 as they were utterly incapable of killing 3 lousy barb archers. Even threw a follow-up warrior at them too, but no luck. Either they're much more useless than rumour has it, or the RNG boned me - again.

:mad:

When it says 91% odds. I'm thinking more like 19%. Maybe 50% on a good day.

Rotten luck dude ... rotten luck , I've found myself taking cities at 25% probablility, and here is 91 % ..... Lady Luck was not on Your side this time, anyways only 99,9 % chance is a sure win, everything else goes ;) hence super spearman ..... :D :spear:
 
^^ Mind you, lose at 99.9% is possible and I had losses when odds displayed were 100%. If there is something to grip about in Civ1-2-3-4 - RNG factor is a first in the line.
 
^^ Mind you, lose at 99.9% is possible and I had losses when odds displayed were 100%. If there is something to grip about in Civ1-2-3-4 - RNG factor is a first in the line.

I cannot recall odds at 100% in any Civ game ! :O just 99.9% ... ;)
 
100% is displayed when odds are >= 99.95. You still have 5/10000 chance losing fight, while 100% is displayed.

Try this game to gain such odds.
 
Stuff it , it is always 99,9% it can never be 100% and I have never seen it as I swear to God and all that is Holy ! Always had 99.9 % but never 100%, never ! arghhhhh ! :> ... ;)
 
Try the map, I linked and you will see. :)
Need some super duper GGunit with Combat 6+Drill4+CR 3+WoodyIII+++ something like 300 XP unit.

Or you can just worldbuild such beast.

EDIT: forgot to mention you can actually see 100% odds when attacking heavily wounded unit too. Not that rare btw.
 
I thought that the 100% bug was patched out of the game? I only see >99.9%. Are you using BTS 3.19, GKey?
 
Here is the part of one of my posts in the Civ 2 forums dealing with Civ 4 (you can find the complete post also dealing with Civ 2-Civ 5 here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12123957&postcount=6):

Than came the "mega-catastrophe" called Civ 4. The Civ-world didn´t look any longer properly to me. Civ 4 (and later Civ 5) presents the world like a view on a toilet-brush. The units, buildings and cities on the map are standing all in different directions: What a mess!! This had nothing to do with the earth beeing round. It was a part of the high price of introducing a really not needed 3d engine to the game. The world is now presented in all three optical dimensions what in combination with the distortion of the proportion of units in my eyes leads to completely unacceptable results. The units now could be zoomed in again, but compared to Civ 3-units, they lost every second pixle, so they can be presented in the game. Civ 2 showed, that a good zoom function in a civ game is possible, even without a resource-eating 3d engine.

Spoiler :


Another consequence of the resource-wasting 3d engine was, that this world now became much smaller to be playable than a world of Civ 3. The salesargument of Civ 4 for the restriction to now much smaller worlds was, that now the game focuses on the specialisation of cities. What a ... :vomit: As if it wouldn´t be common tactics since Civ 1 to cumulate the boni of improvements and resources in a city whenever possible. The number of civs in Civ 4 (vanilla) was also massively reduced from the 31 in C3C thanks to that completely unnecessairy 3d-engine. Even with these restrictions (at least for a long time) many civers had massive lag-problems with the performance of Civ 4 in the later phases of the game.

Of course the next feature that made Civ 2 "timeless" was also cut out in Civ 4. There was no longer an editor in Civ 4 and modding became extremely complicated compared to Civ 2 and Civ 3. I never forget, while assisting a good Civ 4 modder to do an interesting ship for Civ 4, the moment when it was noticed, that only the first of the many guns of that ship can fire (Edited: When looking in that thread, there was a time when not even one of the cannons of HMS Warrior did fire). Modding became a privileg for an elite that needed more and more knowledge, the "modder from the street" focused in Civ 2 became an "outsider".

The combat system in Civ 4 on the first view seemed somewhat improved, but the best tactics with all these so-called "improvements" was to throw all units in a monsterstack, so all these so-called "improvements" in battle became very dubious in my eyes. The use of suicide-catapults against these monster-stacks had nothing to do any longer with history. They also could use flying burning pigs. Welcome in the world of comics! The idea of Sid to combine the features of a wargame (Empire) and the features of a construction game (Sim City) with history became severly corrupted. Civ 4 tried to make a cartoon out of the Civ series on a world like a toilet-brush and leaders like Mickey Mouse :eek:!

With the Firaxian rule of thumb "one third new, one third improved, one third old" it was no wonder that nearly all parts I liked in Civ now in Civ 4 were cut out. So it´s no wonder I never liked Civ 4 and its expansions. But from time to time I try one of the Civ 4 mods to be somewhat informed about Civ 4. The worst thing is, that the ugly and resource-eating 3d-engine can´t be modded away. But there was still something good in Civ 4 - it had a handbook with a good analysis about Civ 3, that I used for my Civ 3 epic mod CCM.
 
I thought that the 100% bug was patched out of the game? I only see >99.9%. Are you using BTS 3.19, GKey?

I'm pretty sure I only get 100% odds in mods.

I play BTS 3.19 with BUG/BULL or BUFFY (which is BUG+BULL+HOF). Well, may be in non BUG/BULL versions there is no 100%. Not sure.

I see 100% pretty often. Full health war elephant attacking heavy wounded chariot, stuff like that.
 
@Civinator I can agree, that 3D engine is not really necessary in a game like civilization. It's just an eye candy, which become more of distortion when you play for a long time. OTOH for good sales today game have to have latest generation graphic engine, which made 3D in civilization inevitable.

The lag in latest stages of the game AFAIK created not by graphics but by heavy load on CPU and RAM consumption by numerous objects on map. I remember the same lag in modern era in Civ3.

As to smaller world, there still are huge maps (and custom created SUPER HUGE MAPS).

Monster stucks - was a common strategy in Civ 3 too? So called SOD's came from there. The system when you lose entire stuck when 1 defending unit dies is plain dumb imho. Civ4 on the other hand introduced collateral damage future, that gave both to human player and AI the tool to deal with SODs. Well, that was not very historic accurate, still nice decision in my eyes.
 
I play BTS 3.19 with BUG/BULL or BUFFY (which is BUG+BULL+HOF). Well, may be in non BUG/BULL versions there is no 100%. Not sure.

I see 100% pretty often. Full health war elephant attacking heavy wounded chariot, stuff like that.

I get 100% odds, and lose, in Warlords. Can't comment on BtS. I can post screenies of losing at 100% though, if you want company in your misery.

By the way, War Chariots are fantastic units, one of my very favorite. Don't give up on them because they failed you one time, all units will do that sooner or later. You didn't mention, was the city on a hill, with walls, were the archers City Garrison promoted? Well, I guess it doesn't matter as you stated the odds at 91%. Give the WC's another chance, I think you will like them.
 
Than came the "mega-catastrophe" called Civ 4...

Very interesting post Civinator. It was also hard for me to assimilate the 3d graphics, and as you, I really think they were unnecessary. But as others had remark, they had to do it because "fashion" in games was to switch to 3D graphics, and fashion usually sells, and let's not forget the game industry is about business, about making money.

About other aspects that you touch, I think the combat system was hugely improved in Civ4, specially the mathematical equation that defines the result of battles. It was really pathetic to see a spearman beating a tank in previous civ games :spear:

About stacking, I think the problem is not that stacking is "unrealistic" but that for many it becomes very tedious to be managing such large numbers of units. I think that can be solved, but I won't say more about this cos there are tons of threads in this forum about "how to solve the SoD".

I also don't like suicide siege. But it became fundamental in the game mechanics. As a counterweight to SoD.

Yes, it sucks that catapults self destroy after bombing, but somehow the SoD-Suicide Siege relation keeps balance, and in a game, that's what matters most.

I was hoping that Civ5 would polish the rough aspects of Civ4... but they better went other direction... oops!! this isn't the Civ5 rant thread right? better stop now :blush:
 
When it says 91% odds. I'm thinking more like 19%. Maybe 50% on a good day.

I know it is painful, but the same can happen to the AI... Remember you´re just the commander. Maybe one of your chariot guys had birthday one day before the battle and they were very hangover... tough luck!
 
A fancy engine allows you to pull off a flashier aesthetic, but it's often unnecessary.
Civ4 is downright ugly, and while Civ5 isn't too bad you can pull off a sleek if slightly sterile art deco feel without wasting resources.
I'd rather have 2D terrain types that merge into somewhat natural-looking maps; in an important way modern graphics are worse than some from 20 years ago.

Gameplay: Civ4 did it best of the series in my opinion. My main complaint is about flavour: how siege units are handled isn't at all intuitive or realistic (although it works from a balance aspect, sort of).
Straightforward 'point balanced stack at nearest city' works, and the AI can do it; there are lots of little ways to get a tactical advantage if you put in the effort but you aren't forced to turn it into a wargame.
 
You'll see 100% odds sometimes in ACO or possibly also in unpatched civ4 games.

ACO is included in mods like BUG.

Note however that 100%, as GKey pointed out, for ACO means greater than 99.95% odds, so is still not a certainty.

If you're interested, the only way to get 100% odds of winning for sure is to have a unit that is 1000 times stronger than the defender. For example, a modern armor vs. a heavily wounded (1/100HP) warrior would qualify. Due to a quirk, the defender can never have 100% odds, and will always have at least a 1/1000 chance of being damaged per combat round.
 
Just given as an example, nothing more; it wasn't a statement relating to the Civ games

Sure, it wasn't. You just happened to mention it, randomly.

How so? I've coded both square- and hex- based tiled games and the square-based one's algorithms are much more trivial to implement and far easier to optimise.

Of course there's an initial hump - (x,y) data structures are easier - but it ought to be obvious the size of that hump is basically constant, so in a large program it doesn't matter a bit. There were hex-based wargames in the 8-bit days; the idea that pathing is prohibitively hard on a hex map doesn't stand up to examination. (Indeed, it's easier if you want it done well, because on a square map with an oddball distance metric (like Civ) you should cheese with diagonal moves whenever possible).
 
Top Bottom