Civ 5 - Why the protest?

[Ahriman]

but corporations do need to be made aware of what their limits are. By speaking out, I'm sending them that message.

Delusions of grandeur?

By speaking out, you're doing no such thing. By not buying Civ5, that will send a (small) message.

If you really dislike Steam, don't buy Civ5 or any other games that require Steam.
If you really dislike DRM, don't buy any games with any DRM.

If it turns out that you're in the majority, game companies will see falling sales and conclude they were wrong.

If it turns out you're in the minority, then too bad for you, you won't get what you want, and you have to either not buy many games, or accept defeat and bite the bullet.

But I'm guessing that even many of the so-called anti-Steam diehards declaring they will never buy with Steam, will still end up doing so if the game turns out to be great.
[Why else would they be here?]

Talk is cheap.

From my perspective, yes, I'd prefer that they had a version that didn't require Steam. But its not that big a deal for me. And I believe the developers when they say it made development easier/cheaper for them. So, I'll live with it, and buy the game, and hopefully enjoy it.

Now we have some new content, so hopefully the Steam threads can die.

Peace.

 

[arstal]

Actually, if they see falling sales, they'll just blame piracy instead.

Even though I've said I oppose Steam, I've not said that I boycott the service, just that I refuse to pay above GOG-level prices for Steam games, due to the nature of the DRM. (unless you can play game without said DRM)

The problem is, only the hardcores really know what Steam is. For those who don't play many games, and may just buy Civ at Wal-Mart (which I think is the majority of sales), those people won't notice a thing.

 

[Willem]

Delusions of grandeur?

'

Hardly. I'm just exercising one of the few options I have as a consumer.

By speaking out, you're doing no such thing. By not buying Civ5, that will send a (small) message.

Not buying Civ 5 without making it clear what the reasons are for my decision helps no one. They can just base the lower sales numbers on market conditions without seeing the real reason behind them.

If you really dislike Steam, don't buy Civ5 or any other games that require Steam.

And I won't. And as I keep saying over and over again, though obviously no one is paying attention, I have nothing against Steam. I'm sure it provides a good service to some people, I'm just not one of them. So I should not be forced into using it. Let it be an option, not a requirement.

If you really dislike DRM, don't buy any games with any DRM.

DRM in some form is a fact of life. It's just a question of how they go about it. And having some third party corporation like Steam involved is not the way to do it IMO. It introduces too many variables that I'm just not comfortable with. Not to mention that giving them an exclusive stifles competition in the marketplace. That's never a good thing for the consumer.

If it turns out that you're in the majority, game companies will see falling sales and conclude they were wrong.

Again, not if they aren't aware of why their sales are falling.

Now we have some new content, so hopefully the Steam threads can die.

Why is it that the pro-Steam people are so determined to stifle any sort of debate on the issue? The main response from all of you is simply STFU.

 

[jungleroomx]

Protesting their building is an option available to a consumer?

Dude, listen. Sit here.

I love me some Civilization. There have been things I've hated about all 4, and things I've loved. It's easily my favorite series of games right in front of XCom.

It's not that serious.

 

[Willem]

Protesting their building is an option available to a consumer?

Where exactly did I mention anything about protesting their building? Please read people's posts carefully before you pass judgment. I'm simply expressing my dissatisfaction with 2K's decision to get Steam involved, nothing more. And yes, it is an option, though in this case it's clearly going a bit too far. Now people protesting outside of British Petroleum's offices right now is one thing, doing it to a game company is quite another.

 

[Welnic]

... There's plenty of other games to play. Fallout: New Vegas will be coming out at about the same time as Civ5, so I'll just go for that one instead. My gaming budget is very limited right now as it is anyway.

Then you are going to be very disappointed to find out that FNV uses Steamworks also. I know I was. But with those two games both forcing Steam I have resigned myself to my fate.

 

[Senethro]

Better Steamworks than GFWL again. Good call Bethesda.

 

[Greybriar]

Better Steamworks than GFWL again. Good call Bethesda.

The lesser of two evils? Some choice.

 

[Sonereal]

'
Why is it that the pro-Steam people are so determined to stifle any sort of debate on the issue? The main response from all of you is simply STFU.

Because its a redundant topic. One person or even ten or a hundred or even a thousand people on the internet complaining about Steam when nearly every other game coming out is getting involved with Steam in some one won't make a difference.

A 1000 games don't make a difference and given the rise in popularity in Steam over the years thanks to the already popular corporation, Valve, not buying the game does nothing.

Which is it, you could possibly get thousands upon thousands against EA but Valve? The guys who released Team Fortress, Half Life, Portal, and Left 4 Dead? Talk about an uphill battle.

2k won't see significant outrage over this. You know why? Because MW2 had entire groups filled with sometimes thousands complaining about lack of dedicated servers and yet the game still sold big and the people complaining bought the game anyway. Its the 21st century.

25 million registered users and 70% of the digital distribution market proves that people like Steam.

 

[Greybriar]

...25 million registered users and 70% of the digital distribution market proves that people like Steam.

No, it doesn't. As many on these forums have mentioned, they will become registered Steam users because it is the only way they can play Civ5. The same is true for many other games that require Steam to play.

 

[Sonereal]

No, it doesn't. As many on these forums have mentioned, they will become registered Steam users because it is the only way they can play Civ5. The same is true for many other games that require Steam to play.

If people didn't like Steam, then they wouldn't have chosen to download and use it in the first place which caused the recent rise in games requiring Steam.

Let's see, 25 registered active users (from wikipedia) and services 2 million users concurently

In 2005, the first third-party games began to appear on Steam. Valve also announced that Steam was starting to be profitable, if only due to some highly successful Valve games. Although digital distribution was still no match to retail in terms of sales volume, profit margins for Valve and developers were far bigger on Steam than at retail.[53]Gabe Newell, CEO of Valve, estimated in 2002 that $30 gross profit can be made from a $50 game sold over Steam, much greater than the $7.50 profit made from games sold through retail.[42]

In 2007, big developer-publishers such as Eidos Interactive, Capcom, and id Software started to distribute their games on Steam. In May 2007, 13 million accounts had been created on Steam, and 150 games were for sale on the platform.[54] In October 2007, with the highly successful release of The Orange Box, and the distribution of high-profile games such as BioShock, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, and S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl, Steam began to take the lead in digital distribution.

 

[Willem]

Then you are going to be very disappointed to find out that FNV uses Steamworks also. I know I was. But with those two games both forcing Steam I have resigned myself to my fate.

Oh crap! It looks like I'm about to run out of options then. So much for consumer choice. It seems we're being forced down a path of the game companies choosing. At least with two games I want to play, Steam becomes a little more palatable.

Better Steamworks than GFWL again. Good call Bethesda.

I never had any issues with GFWL at all, it was completely invisible to my game. The only thing I had to was download an updated version of what came on the disc. No registration, no internet, nothing. I've even been able to bypass it completely with the FOSE (Fallout Script Extender) utility and the DarN UI mod I use. I don't even know that it's there anymore.

 

[Akka]

This just shows a profound lack of insight into other peoples position. I merely think Steam is a better form of DRM than securom

Well, you're wrong.

 

[Sleepehead]

I'm fairly new here but I've been lurking around for a few months and I still don't understand why people are so against steam. Though I'm new here I've used steam for a few years already and I don't see where people are getting some of their notions.

For instance when people say that they won't be able to mod Civ 5 must not have played some of their games. I play TF2 regularly and used to play Left 4 Dead in those two games modding is very huge. People can re-skin the characters, play in modded servers (I actually played L4D games that had some of the same features from the sequel), they can mess with their console to change the appearance of the games. Go to their TF2 forum, TF2 is like their most modded game and one of the most active communities I've seen in gaming circles. I'm actually hoping that Civ turns more into that community where they community can have a huge effect in maps, weapons, hats etc that come out with updates.

Also people have cheated and hacked and I've played with those people before with steam and w/o steam so first I must say is that steam is far from a finished product. And some of those who were caught cheating weren't banned forever. Hell if anything I must say that steam kind of lacks a speedy response to some cheaters and hackers. Those who are caught are instead basically publicly ridiculed in the forums.

And finally to those who are against the whole DRM issue with steam, I have to ask have you guys ever pirated games before. Because it seems that some of your basis with Civ 5 on steam seems totally ridiculous.

DRM does suck but w/o it piracy would be more prevalent.

 

[PieceOfMind]

25 million registered users and 70% of the digital distribution market proves that people like Steam.

I'm sorry to say but that doesn't prove anywhere near what you claim. It means only what they said in the thing you quote: There are 25 million active accounts.

No, it doesn't. As many on these forums have mentioned, they will become registered Steam users because it is the only way they can play Civ5. The same is true for many other games that require Steam to play.

If people didn't like Steam, then they wouldn't have chosen to download and use it in the first place which caused the recent rise in games requiring Steam.

Let's see, 25 registered active users (from wikipedia) and services 2 million users concurently

Now, please tell me what definition they used for "active" accounts. Part of the reason your original assertion is wrong is that a user (i.e. a person) can have more than one account. Heck I do and I've been using Steam for as little as a year. The 2 million concurrent users is easier to verify (assuming Steam is honest about this, which I will take as granted) by simply loading up Steam at the busy time of day.
My suggestion was that active accounts meant accounts that have been used in the past year. However someone (I forget who now ) pointed out to me they believed it was even looser than that. It's like WoW counting among its users the many people who have inactive accounts.
The fact is that unless Valve tells you exactly what active accounts even means, the claims of 25 million users is likely a very irresponsible re-wording (something they will let steam fans in arguments get away with, it's not even Valve saying it in this case).

And yes, you can dislike Steam yet have an active account on it. Heck, how many people do you know who hate Microsoft yet never touch a windows computer? Sometimes to get something done you have to give in and just use the damn software (in this case, Steam). Unless you have done a survey or study on it, you are not in a position to claim just how many of those 25 million "active accounts" are accounts where the person would prefer to be playing the game without steam.

 

[Akka]

I'm fairly new here but I've been lurking around for a few months and I still don't understand why people are so against steam.

There is dozens of threads about this.
Maybe you should actually READ them if you really want to understand, because they give all the information necessary.

That is, if you actually REALLY want to understand.

 

[arstal]

Oh crap! It looks like I'm about to run out of options then. So much for consumer choice. It seems we're being forced down a path of the game companies choosing. At least with two games I want to play, Steam becomes a little more palatable.



I never had any issues with GFWL at all, it was completely invisible to my game. The only thing I had to was download an updated version of what came on the disc. No registration, no internet, nothing. I've even been able to bypass it completely with the FOSE (Fallout Script Extender) utility and the DarN UI mod I use. I don't even know that it's there anymore.

There's plenty of options if you don't want to use steam. You'll lose a few titles, such as Civ 5, but most titles have a non-Steam version.

Civ 5 isn't going to be the greatest game ever anyways. There's always a game better or as good then that game on Steam, you just have to find it.

I'd take GFWL over Steam also- at least you don't need it running to play singleplayer.

DRM has been proven to have no effect on piracy. People who know how to pirate will either go around it, or just pirate something else. All DRM does in the end, is slow down piracy 0-day (which a non-intrusive DRM does just as well), and cost sales based on how crappy it is. So those folks who are claiming that DRM is a fact of life- quit spouting misinformation. DRM is only a way of life because many gamers don't care about it until it bites them.

 

[Johnny Bash]

Too bad GFWL only supports 10 countries. If you are living in Estonia for example, you can't use the multiplayer options of the games using GFWL.
Awesome job, MS!

 

[mattigus]

Before this thread gets nuked, can someone explain to me the racism thing? Thanks.

PS. This thread is doomed.

PPS. I love Steam.

 

[Ahriman]

Before this thread gets nuked, can someone explain to me the racism thing?

The original civ-statements that went up on the official site had some stupid comments, including something like (paraphrased) "The Ottoman Empire is fascinating but is relatively unknown, occupying the blind spot that Americans have for pretty much everything between Greece and China".

Which was pretty dumb on there part, and was removed once it got pointed out.
[And there were a few other similarly foolish statements.]

Action taken, over and done with.